At the turn of the century, how would the RN size up against an allied USN and Kriegsmarine? I'm not particularly knowledgeable about this era of naval warfare, so I'm inclined to say the RN would still be able to dominate the North Atlantic by bottling up the KM in the North Sea and making quick work of the USN's Atlantic squadrons, but I would like to hear what more knowledgeable people have to say.
How would the RN fare in a pre-WWI conflict against the USN and Kriegsmarine?
- Thread starter Color-Copycat
- Start date
If it remained a naval war and only that, the Royal Navy wins unless it drags on long enough for the USA's industrial potential to come into play. If the USA declines to admit defeat, eventually their fleet will outnumber and outgun the British.
BlondieBC
Banned
The most important change will be the lack of wireless on ships. Merchant raiding by cruisers/AMC will be a huge headache for the UK. For a UK Merchant ship to report a sighting of an USA/German merchant raider, the UK ship will need to make port, and then use the undersea cables to report the sighting. In many ways, this war will resemble a war in the age of pirates than WW1. But in the long run, the UK should win at sea with heavy losses to its merchant fleet, and Germany should be secure on land in Europe. Germany loses its colonies.
I imagine the US would give up not long after British Battleships parked themselves in the major ports on the East coast and threatend to open fire. Neither the US or German navies would be able to successfully challenge the RN which at this time was as at least as large as the next TWO largest navies.
Germany would have its own problems as France took the opertunity to reclaim Alsace Lorraine.
A good question would be why the war started as that would give some indication as to how far the warring countries would take things.
Germany would have its own problems as France took the opertunity to reclaim Alsace Lorraine.
A good question would be why the war started as that would give some indication as to how far the warring countries would take things.
Someone in another thread was claiming the RN didn't stand a chance against a combined USN and KM, and I thought that sounded like a very tenuous proposition but i wanted to confirm my doubts.
BlondieBC
Banned
Agreed, on the how it starts is critical. Nothing comes to mind that would get an USA/Germany versus UK war. Dumber and stranger things have happened in history, so it is not ASB, but the war likely comes as a shock to everyone.
I am not so sure France jumps into the war. Germany army is inactive, but likely a high state of readiness. With the rest of Europe at peace, Germany can import what it needs through many neutrals. The English still view the French as the major enemy, since the bulk of the naval race has not happened.
Yeah ermm considering the RN was kept at something like twice the size of the next biggest navy, they could have held their own. Also factor in the fact that the RN is arguably more experienced on the sea than their American and German counterparts. Not that the USN and KM wouldn't give the RN a run for it's money, but Britain would be bringing it's battlehsip guns to bear on American cities very quickly and the KM would find itself trying to break out of the North Sea.
Don't forget that the USN has to worry about 2 oceans. Unless the war gets particularly nasty and goes on for a very long time, the US will always be pulling punches so to speak to keep the Pacific covered. The UK could also probably stop anything from getting through the Panama Canal if they needed to.
And as far as modernization goes, the RN pretty much held an incontestable lead across the board, right?
NothingNow
Banned
That might've been me a while back.
I kinda got on this thing about the USN and KM being able to defeat the RN in a US declares for the CP, against Japan WW1, Mostly by forcing the RN into massive overstretch, between commerce raiding, attacks on Convoys everywhere, and the USN smashing the IJN in that vaunted decisive battle, forcing the RN to pick up the slack (and considering the IJN's involvement in WW1, that's a lot.)
The hard part was in getting the US to Declare war on Japan where the UK couldn't just drop them.
I'd like to ask: when would this theoretical war take place? If it were to be before 1905, then Britain would win by virtue of massive numbers. After 1905, they'd probably have a tech advantage as well due to the advent of HMS Dreadnought;the RN would almost certainly have more dreadnought-type battleships than any other navy in addition to more pre-dreadnoughts.
In 1914, they had 18 in commission (plus 6 under construction), compared to 10 for the USA and 17 for Germany. Those are better numbers than I expected, frankly. However, in smaller ships, cruisers for example, they appear to have had superior numbers. Still, if this hypothetical war happens as late as 1914, in place of WW1 for example, then the UK has a real problem. Germany's naval expansion has happened by then and the USA has the potential to explode in numbers.
Well, it was close to finished at about the time of OTL outbreak of the Great War. I suppose construction could be ramped up by the US to help w/ this scenario's war.
Britain could really put a damper on the completion.
Although not officially opened until 1914, construction was completed in 1913. Plenty of time.
Actually, no, HMS Dreadnought may have been revolutionary in many ways, but USS South Carolina was the first to have superfiring turrets.
sharlin
Banned
The RN outnumbered the RM and USN in every aspect of warships prior to the dreadnought race and even then at its height they outnumbered either navy. With Battleships (not Dreadnoughts) the disparity was ridiculious, the USN did not build light cruisers and concentrated on building good armoured cruisers whilst the Germans built good but undergunned ships.
Hell the RN in one class of battleships almost outnumbered the German navy's battle line when built. 9 Majestic class battleships, and that was just One class.
If the RN was able to deal with both seperately then its a foregone conclusion at sea. If somehow the Germans got to the Atlantic and America and joined up with the USN then it would be interesting but numbers and training would tell. And at the height of the early 1900s building when Fisher was in charge of the RN the fleets efficiency was sky high compaired to what it use to be.
Hell the RN in one class of battleships almost outnumbered the German navy's battle line when built. 9 Majestic class battleships, and that was just One class.
If the RN was able to deal with both seperately then its a foregone conclusion at sea. If somehow the Germans got to the Atlantic and America and joined up with the USN then it would be interesting but numbers and training would tell. And at the height of the early 1900s building when Fisher was in charge of the RN the fleets efficiency was sky high compaired to what it use to be.
Please don't refer to the German Navy as Kriegsmarine (KM) in a WWI and before scenario. rather call it Hochseeflotte.
If the only concern is Fleet vs Fleet - its UK any time prior and during WWI.
But UK would have to WIN the war not only at sea.
UK would have to rally all its dominions and India if it stands alone.
First thing to do for UK is to bring a massive army to Canada - as this is the only land border where a land battle is possible. This might lead to an early battle in the NA - the further West it is fought the better will the US navy perform (Fleets quickly lost their "power" when venturing further from homeports)
The Hochseeflotte probably will be confined to the NorthSea and Baltic sea due to the short range of her battle line, so in the Atlantic its US vs UK alone unless fighting near England.
UK might attack the Fillies from India/AUS and NZ...
The earlier the war is fought the lesser will be the impact of a "raider" campaign.
Subs might have no impact in a pre 1910 war.
Deciding factor will be the reaction of other nations...
Japan probably sides with the UK (Anglo Japanese treaty)
A-H with GErmany (will not change the naval balance)
France - Russia - depends how "cordial" the relations to UK are...
Italy - depends on which side France and or AH is
Turkey - won't matter
Spain - after 1898 - might see a chance to get back the colonies from the US...
If the only concern is Fleet vs Fleet - its UK any time prior and during WWI.
But UK would have to WIN the war not only at sea.
UK would have to rally all its dominions and India if it stands alone.
First thing to do for UK is to bring a massive army to Canada - as this is the only land border where a land battle is possible. This might lead to an early battle in the NA - the further West it is fought the better will the US navy perform (Fleets quickly lost their "power" when venturing further from homeports)
The Hochseeflotte probably will be confined to the NorthSea and Baltic sea due to the short range of her battle line, so in the Atlantic its US vs UK alone unless fighting near England.
UK might attack the Fillies from India/AUS and NZ...
The earlier the war is fought the lesser will be the impact of a "raider" campaign.
Subs might have no impact in a pre 1910 war.
Deciding factor will be the reaction of other nations...
Japan probably sides with the UK (Anglo Japanese treaty)
A-H with GErmany (will not change the naval balance)
France - Russia - depends how "cordial" the relations to UK are...
Italy - depends on which side France and or AH is
Turkey - won't matter
Spain - after 1898 - might see a chance to get back the colonies from the US...