How would Sweden joining WWI affect the region?

It seems like Sweden is the most popular of the neutral nations to be mentioned joining World War I, on the CP no less. Suppose it does. Depending on what happens in the war, what is likely the effects on Sweden and the rest of Scandinavia? Minimum effect? Or do the Swedes get hit as hard as the rest of the losers and we have Sven Olof Lindholm's Norsefire Party coming to power, bringing the country into the Anti-Comintern Pact?
 

Rubicon

Banned
It seems like Sweden is the most popular of the neutral nations to be mentioned joining World War I, on the CP no less. Suppose it does. Depending on what happens in the war, what is likely the effects on Sweden and the rest of Scandinavia? Minimum effect? Or do the Swedes get hit as hard as the rest of the losers and we have Sven Olof Lindholm's Norsefire Party coming to power, bringing the country into the Anti-Comintern Pact?

Sweden is much more likely to go fully red then brown. I can easily see a red revolution sweeping across Sweden sometime in 1916-19 in case they join the war, on either side.
 
Sweden is much more likely to go fully red then brown. I can easily see a red revolution sweeping across Sweden sometime in 1916-19 in case they join the war, on either side.
Indeed. The number of reforms in Sweden were very numerous from 1916-1921 - the elites really did fear revolution, the Russian one's reverberations truly being felt. I could definitely see the Finnish Civil War go the other way in this situation.
 
A navy that Sweden has will get trashed if they join the CP. In terms of manpower, I can't see them contribute much to the Western Front, or even very much in Finland. So let's assume that the rest of the Great War goes similar to IOTL.

Red Sweden means Red Finland. And it also means Red coastline on the North Sea. Great Britain is going to be very tense about that, even to the point of wanting Germany much stronger than the Treaty of Versailles allowed IOTL so as to counter Red Sweden. Red Coastline in the North Sea means a Red Navy in Britain's backyard.

Red Sweden would also be one of the prime targets of the Nazis, should they come to power as IOTL. "Fellow Nordics" under the rule of Judeo-Bolsheviks and all that. Perhaps the Nazis would, ITTL, go after Sweden before thinking of Poland, or at the very least, they'd invade Sweden before the USSR.

If, for whatever reason, the Wehrmacht can't move into Sweden properly, it becomes a staging ground for RAF bombers against Germany.
 
A navy that Sweden has will get trashed if they join the CP.

By whom? Iirc the German navy in the Baltic was always stronger than the Russian. Wouldn't the two fleets combine?

In terms of manpower, I can't see them contribute much to the Western Front, or even very much in Finland. So let's assume that the rest of the Great War goes similar to IOTL.

Not even in Summer 1915? With the main Russian armies on the run in Poland, I'd have thought even a modest Swedish army in Finland would be a problem for them.
 

Cook

Banned
Why would they join the war?
Sweden had in the past ruled Finland and had lost it to Russia in the Finnish War of 1808-09. This constituted a full third of the Kingdom of Sweden and was sorely felt, even a full hundred years later.

Following the Austro-Hungarian ultimatum to Serbia in July 1914, the Swedish Foreign Minister, Knut Wallenberg, informed the German and Austro-Hungarian ambassadors that the ultimatum had his approval and that if Russia did back Serbia and war broke out between Russia and Germany, then the Swedish Government ‘would not for one moment remain in doubt on whose side they would have to stand’. When Esme Howard, the British Ambassador to Sweden, saw Wallenberg on the 2 August to ask for assurances that Sweden would remain neutral he was told, ‘Sweden was determined to maintain neutrality as long as possible.’ When Howard asked for clarification as to what would cause Sweden to cease being neutral he was told, ‘if Great Britain joined Russia, Sweden would be forced to take the other side’. At a cabinet meeting in Berlin the same day General Moltke said he believed that Sweden could be brought into the war on the German side if they ‘unhesitatingly granted all her wishes for the recovery of Finland’. It may sound bizarre but most of the minor powers that entered the war did so after offers of territorial bribes from either side, several enjoyed a bidding war from representatives of both the Entente and the Central Powers; this was the case for Montenegro, Romania, Bulgaria and Greece.

Thirteen Days: Diplomacy and Disaster by Clive Ponting covers the diplomatic events leading up to the outbreak of the First World War. The italicised quotes above are from the book.
The number of reforms in Sweden were very numerous from 1916-1921 - the elites really did fear revolution...
At the time everyone in Europe did.
 
The total Swedish armed forces at this time was 400 000, with about 170 000 in the line army and 230 000 in the Landstormen, similar to the German Landwehr. The line army consisted of 6 infantry, 6 reserve and 1 cavalry division. The quality was considered high and the army modern, with 150mm m/06 howitzers for heavy artillery, 75mm m/04 krupp cannon for light and being delivered 105mm m/10 bofors howitzers for medium.

MG companies for each division were organised during spring 1914 and the cavalry and the fortress troops used Madsen LMGs.

The combined Swedish and German fleet is clearly superior to the Russian Baltic Fleet, so the Russians will need to keep troops in the Baltic countries and Finland to counter landings. 10-12 extra divisions away from the front, I would guess. That is enough to swing the battle in Galizia, for example.
 
It may sound bizarre but most of the minor powers that entered the war did so after offers of territorial bribes from either side, several enjoyed a bidding war from representatives of both the Entente and the Central Powers; this was the case for Montenegro, Romania, Bulgaria and Greece.

hahaha it wasn't the alliance system's fault, it's because nation-states are greedy bitches!

So, could Denmark or Norway have likewise been bribed to join the war?
 

Cook

Banned
So, could Denmark or Norway have likewise been bribed to join the war?
Denmark had lost Schleswig and Holstein to Prussia in 1864 and this had left them with a lasting resentment of their southern neighbour. It was the only Danish territorial ambition that the Germans could have fulfilled and was one that they had absolutely no intention of doing so. The Germans had no need for Denmark to enter the war anyway following the opening of the Kiel Canal (which runs through Schleswig.) Since Denmark was militarily weak, their entering the war would have required German troops to defend the exposed coastline from British attack.

Norway had only been independent for nine years and had no territorial ambitions.
 
At the time everyone in Europe did.

Up until the Russian Revolution and the Soviet victory there the establishment hadn't had any reason to take socialist thought seriously. Then suddenly, and for the next 74 years or so, everyone was terrified of the reds.

I think we need to discuss the course of the war before we start talking about whether or not Sweden goes 'brown or red' in the aftermath. While the Russian Revolution isn't likely to be completely butterflied away the Bolsheviks, who were previously a minority of a minority, taking power likely is. That's going to have a lot of affects on both socialist thought, and thoughts about socialism, worldwide, let alone in areas like Sweden.
 
No I mean then could the British have thus bribed the Danes into attacking Germany?

Not unless the Danish government was feeling suicidally idiotic. The driving force behind most of Denmark's post-1864 foreign policy was the painful realization that Denmark could no longer fight another great power, and could never win a land war against Germany.
 
Fully agree with Chengar.

The 1864 defeat had totally removed any sense of even revenge.

Even up until 1920 and the re-union with pieces of Schleswig back to Denmark, the Danish government was reluctant to even try to grab all the "lost" land from 1864. I read somewhere (to be confirmed though) that the british govenment was stasrting to get a bit impatient with Denmark in terms of where the border should be.

Denmark managed to stick to the vote of the concerned populations; hence the current border, despite the fact that Germany had tried to settle german speaking people to swing the vote.

Even in my childhood, havbing been born 70 km frm the border, travelling south, passing the border, people would still be speaking Danish, surnames like Petersen, Olsen, hansen, etc, etc. until you cross the "real" border some km further south. Then you would be in Germany: Stein, Horst, Fritz, etc, etc.

But Denmark had no appetite for getting people on-board just for the hell of it, knowing it would just cause problems later.


Just a note,

Ivan
 
I think we need to discuss the course of the war before we start talking about whether or not Sweden goes 'brown or red' in the aftermath. While the Russian Revolution isn't likely to be completely butterflied away the Bolsheviks, who were previously a minority of a minority, taking power likely is. That's going to have a lot of affects on both socialist thought, and thoughts about socialism, worldwide, let alone in areas like Sweden.

I think this is the heart of the matter. Anyone got any suggestions about the implications of Swedish entrance into WWI on the side of the CP?
 
I think long term effects might be significant. Swedish entry on the CP side (which did seem like a possibility at one point) could lead to Denmark and Norway being forced into the war on one side or the other (let's say Norway is coerced to join the Allied camp (or actually ocupied by the British as a way to get at Sweden) and Denmark is probably occupied by the Germans to forestall an alliance with the Allies. Assuming the CP still loses, I'd see Sweden possibly having to either cede Skane to Denmark or granting it independence. Finland getting its independence might be less sure in this situation.

I suspect the whole concept of Nordic neutrality would be gone. Sweden would be an angry revisionist power much more willing to work with Germany in WW2, and might itself invade Norway and or Denmark with token German assistance. If WW2 ends as it did, all the Scandinavian states might be occupied by one or more of the victorious allies and there could even be divided zones of occupation. They would automatically be part of the cold-war alliance structure (which really only affects Sweden because Norway and Denmark did become NATO members). Finland, assuming it is even independent in this TL would become occupied by the Soviets
 
I think long term effects might be significant. Swedish entry on the CP side (which did seem like a possibility at one point) could lead to Denmark and Norway being forced into the war on one side or the other (let's say Norway is coerced to join the Allied camp (or actually ocupied by the British as a way to get at Sweden) and Denmark is probably occupied by the Germans to forestall an alliance with the Allies. Assuming the CP still loses [...]

But would the CP lose in a Sweden joins situation? That's another front for the Russians, and another route of supply by the allies to the east that is cut off.

Beyond that, why would Sweden joining the war in the Central Powers instantly lead to Denmark and Norway joining the allies? Denmark in particular was very much against antagonizing the Germans.
 
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