In all the discussions about the UKPBA, Brazil is the big player while Portugal is simply a European territory. It makes sense, Rio was the capital. But how can Portugal stay relevant enough in the union with the rising power of Brazil? Maybe moving the capital back to Lisbon but letting Brazil keep it's rights? That would at least make it a hub of the empire, maybe even the hub of the empire before Rio get's a population boost. I also heard about the Portuguese bankers being powerful in Brazil, that's something. But enough theorizing, how would Portugal go about this?
How would Portugal in a surviving UKPBA stay relevant in the union?
- Thread starter ToasterOven456
- Start date
With this, I though of Brazil expanding an arm of control of the Rio de La Plata, taking land from Argentina/keeping Uruguay and making rump Argentina/Paraguay puppets. The most I could Brazil helping is in disputes with other powers or expanding Portuguese control into Africa. Afro-Brazilians could be encouraged to move Angola after slavery is ended, indirectly making Portuguese power in the region stronger.
chestanewmitz
Banned
Brazil was the main economic node of the african trade, though. I feel we arrive to a situation where portuguese are the state admin, brazilians are the economic powers that be, and the africans hate both equally.
I can definitely see mass riots and lynchings of brazilian/portuguese people when the cat inevitably comes out of the bag, think the expulsion of the Universal Church from Angola a few years ago, on steroids.
Yes, but as long as Brazil and Portugal held the guns, there was nothing Africans could do.
Not only that, you can also expand Portuguese presence in Asia.
chestanewmitz
Banned
They always did, only ended up dead.
And a lot of africans Will end up dead until the situation is unsalvageable for the portuguese or full genocide is achieved (which considering brazilian attitudes to native peoples until the 1988 constitution, might well be the target they aim for.)
An united kingdom wide carnation revolution would be fun to see, though.
Last edited:
Having the Portuguese Navy could help Brazil intensify the blockade of Buenos Aires, which would allow it to keep Cisplatine.
Another aspect to consider is that Mesopotamia (The region of Argentina) is extremely important for the country, and if Brazil manages to conquer it, the results would be disastrous for the Argentines. Brazil would have major control of the Rio de La Plata
Brazil by the 1820s and even during the first attempts to industrialize, (D. Pedro II) was a highly dependent in agricultural exportation, therefore Portugal could try to re-establish itself has the main trader (protectionism/mercantilism) to the re-exportation business of colonial goods to Europe, using Lisbon has a trading HUB. Britain had rights to one Brazilian port in S. Catarina (for what I could gather, could have been more). This would definitely be advantageous to both kingdoms. The establishment of higher tariffs for British goods would limit their influence, those could then be re-exported to the newly established Latin republics, importing silver, to Brazil from the Argentinian/Bolivian nations, and trading colonial goods for the manufactured ones, appeasing Portugal's ally.
Portugal at this point needs to:
> Respect the Brazilian position has an equal kingdom (in the past at least 2 times, during the Reformation in 1640s and during the 18th century, there were proposals to make Brazil the center of the Portuguese Empire, a connection of Europe and Asia), D. João VI has to somehow make the Cortes accept this, what could be negotiable I do not know. Therefore Brazilian Cortes will not be abolished and a centralized control of all states but those comprizing the northwest, Piauí-Maranhão to Amazon, could be an exception, where a Condominium of Portugal and Brazil would be established since trade currents and winds from Portugal connect both regions easily, while Brazil the opposite is true.
>Keep Appeasement of the landowner class, low taxation and no tariffs of the importation of their goods to Portugal would be a away to grant them more profits, keeping them in the Portuguese side.
>Brazil should be supported militarily by the metrolope, in any projects to influence the region (like maintaining Uruguay, even if by compromise). Since OTL most of the officers were Portuguese, ITTL it would be easier to send reinforcements with Capitains to be subordinates of the Portuguese Generals in Brazil, preserving the officer cadres from Portugal, and at the same time making the cadres autonomous, one from the other.
> Reform the Portuguese economic system to make it less dependent in British goods, investment in industrialization should happen to create national demand for colonial goods, especially cotton that could be developed in joint efforts from both kingdoms in Maranhão (a Condominium would be helpful to articulate and develop faster this region).
> Introduction of new botanical species should be attempted by both kingdoms. An Empirial botanical garden must be created to study and adapt Asian species in Brazil, black pepper, cloves and others.
Other things I could be forgetting.
Portugal at this point needs to:
> Respect the Brazilian position has an equal kingdom (in the past at least 2 times, during the Reformation in 1640s and during the 18th century, there were proposals to make Brazil the center of the Portuguese Empire, a connection of Europe and Asia), D. João VI has to somehow make the Cortes accept this, what could be negotiable I do not know. Therefore Brazilian Cortes will not be abolished and a centralized control of all states but those comprizing the northwest, Piauí-Maranhão to Amazon, could be an exception, where a Condominium of Portugal and Brazil would be established since trade currents and winds from Portugal connect both regions easily, while Brazil the opposite is true.
>Keep Appeasement of the landowner class, low taxation and no tariffs of the importation of their goods to Portugal would be a away to grant them more profits, keeping them in the Portuguese side.
>Brazil should be supported militarily by the metrolope, in any projects to influence the region (like maintaining Uruguay, even if by compromise). Since OTL most of the officers were Portuguese, ITTL it would be easier to send reinforcements with Capitains to be subordinates of the Portuguese Generals in Brazil, preserving the officer cadres from Portugal, and at the same time making the cadres autonomous, one from the other.
> Reform the Portuguese economic system to make it less dependent in British goods, investment in industrialization should happen to create national demand for colonial goods, especially cotton that could be developed in joint efforts from both kingdoms in Maranhão (a Condominium would be helpful to articulate and develop faster this region).
> Introduction of new botanical species should be attempted by both kingdoms. An Empirial botanical garden must be created to study and adapt Asian species in Brazil, black pepper, cloves and others.
Other things I could be forgetting.
Last edited:
Africans hate both? Angola rebelled in the independence of Brazil against Portugal to try to become a Brazilian state. There will be groups hating the Reino Unido for sure but there will also be a very large group supporting the RU . In all (or almost all) slave rebellions in Brazil, the government or garrison relied on the help of black Brazilians. One of the 4 most important figures for Brazil's victory against the Netherlands was a black son of parents who were freed from slavery. What will happen in the African colonies is what happened in Brazil, there will be a core of mestizos and Lusitanian blacks suppressing Africans.
what inevitable? the colonies in africa gained independence due to the fact that europeans killed each other. I doubt the RU entering the world wars or if it would enter it would be similar to OTL's Brazil or Portugal entering at the end of the war.
Let's assume that the rebellion takes place in Angola in the same period (1961), Angola had a population of 4,500,000 Africans, 200,000 Europeans and 40,000 mulattos (a total of 4.74 M population). Portugal had a population of 8.93 M and Brazil had a population of 80 M (a total of 88.93 M). Now let's imagine that the entire population of Angola joins the rebellion (which is not possible especially considering that the colony will have a great Brazilian influence) in this case you would have 1 Angolan rebel for every 18 of the RU of Portugal and Brazil. There is no way this revolt could work, especially since the Portuguese/Brazilian custom was to transform colonies into states. This will be treated as a rebellion by members of a state and will hardly succeed.
the portuguese who were only 8.9 M fought for mozambique in a war that lasted 10 years with 80 million brazil there is no chance of a revolt working. In the best case you have a rebellion that doesn't last long, in the worst case the colonies can receive Paraguayan treatment due to the escalation of the war and refusal to surrender (which is a dark thing). Angola and Mozambique will probably not be independent, but in the long run they will be more independent as states within the Kingdom
I doubt there will be a full genocide, in the worst case like I said it's something like Paraguay (Approximately two thirds of Paraguay's population died during the conflict, including about 90% of its men).
One of the graphs from the DNA study in Brazil shows that most of the maternal heritage of the population is of African origin (36%) and indigenous (34%), while the inheritance of the Y chromosome (paternal) is 75% of European origin, 14 .5% African and 0.5% indigenous. Both Portuguese and Brazilians traditionally kill men and marry women from tribes. (excluding allied tribes).
I don't know if a revolution like this could happen, Portugal had this revolution because it was at a great disadvantage (2 Portuguese for each Angolan and 1 Portuguese for 1 Mozambican).
Yes, both cases occur. With the former occurring far more. I assumed that was implied considering the fact that the tribesmen were killed.
This curiously repeats itself a lot in human history (Rome, Arab expansion, mongols etc.)
Last edited:
chestanewmitz
Banned
Considering history textbooks would say a very sanitised version of the ''mixing of the races'' here in brazil until a while ago, some bluntness is necessary.
Not to mention it is something happening until today, sex slavery of native girls is a big problem still.
history books are sanitized because they are often given to children. Discussion along these lines is inappropriate for children. Not to mention that whether or not the idea of a mixed country is fundamental to the Brazilian identity and its breakdown is something that, if it occurs, will destabilize the country severally.
Where? rape is not something accepted in Brazilian society and whenever it happens it is a huge scandal for good reason. There is no culture of enslaving native women nowadays, it is more likely for a Brazilian to go to become a sex slave outside the country than for something like this to happen here. I have never read anywhere that there is a great deal of enslavement of native women as sex slaves. I don't know where you are reading this.
chestanewmitz
Banned
It's already happening, and i hope it goes further.
The ''mixture of races'' myth is a lie invented by the brazilian historical and geographical institute in the urging of Pedro the second, and the children of this nation need to know that.
One could say that 'Iracema'' by josé de alencar is a good allegory: the mixed race baby goes with the portuguese man in the ship, while the indian woman dies.
Last edited:
chestanewmitz
Banned
Take a river barge down the amazon river, go to jericoacoara, aracajú, maceió or go to any mining town in mato grosso or rondônia.
You WILL see little girls selling sweets and soda and they will sell their bodies, also, and all along the BR 153 there's folks that ''rent'' little girls for truck drivers to use, ask any truck driver doing routes to the north.
Sex slavery and child prostitutions are big problems in brazil for five hundred years and counting.
Last edited: