How would Mittelafrika look like in a CP WWI victory scenario?

CaliGuy

Banned
Had the Central Powers won World War I and gotten most of France's and all of Belgium's African colonies in exchange for agreeing to withdraw from some territories in Europe (such as from Belgium itself), what would Mittelafrika (Germany's massive empire in Africa) look like?

Specifically, how exactly would the Germans have governed Mittelafrika? Also, would they keep the existing internal borders in Mittelafrika or would they create new internal borders?

Any thoughts on all of this?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Also, would the victorious Germans have tried playing off various ethnic groups in Mittelafrika against each other, or what?
 

Deleted member 9338

So does Germany, Austro Hungry and the Ottomans all want a piece? Ottomans with Egypt and Libya. Germany with Moracco and well what else. Interested in hearing you thoughts
 

CaliGuy

Banned
So does Germany, Austro Hungry and the Ottomans all want a piece? Ottomans with Egypt and Libya. Germany with Moracco and well what else. Interested in hearing you thoughts
Frankly, I doubt that either Austria-Hungary or the Ottoman Empire (with the possible exception of Libya) would actually want to acquire territory in Africa in this TL.
 
Frankly, I doubt that either Austria-Hungary or the Ottoman Empire (with the possible exception of Libya) would actually want to acquire territory in Africa in this TL.


Emperor Karl showed some interest in acquiring an Italian colony in exchange for the Trentino. He reportedly said "A negro is better value than an irredentist" in blithe ignorance of the way things would go in the later 20C.
 
Emperor Karl showed some interest in acquiring an Italian colony in exchange for the Trentino. He reportedly said "A negro is better value than an irredentist" in blithe ignorance of the way things would go in the later 20C.

Interesting - you never learn enough. Can you point me to a source?
 
Interesting - you never learn enough. Can you point me to a source?


The quote about negro and irredentist is from Gordon Brook Shepherd's The Last Habsburg. I'm sure I'd already seen the proposal to yield the Trentino in exchange for an Italian colony in another book, but just offhand I can't remember where.
 
Frankly, I doubt that either Austria-Hungary or the Ottoman Empire (with the possible exception of Libya) would actually want to acquire territory in Africa in this TL.
Heck, the Ottomans might not even go out of their way to support independent states. When they were just tributaries they showed s good deal of independence, while Egypt itself... Yah, might be competition. Depends, really. I imagine the Ottomans just get Rhodes returned to them on schedule and are happy. Depends at what time they enter the war.

Of course now comes to question of just how much a victory for the Central Powers this is. Will they keep European lands and sattelites in Eastern and Western Europe? The British are unlikely to return colonies in that case. I say the Germans give up for lose their colonies in the Pacific (The Japanese and Chinese are unlikely to give the areas back up, and the British wouldn't want to piss off the Australians and New Zealanders by taking away their conquests. Same with the South Africans in Namibia. The Germans probably end up keeping their colony of German East Africa, but I can imagine the problems arising with the German governor trying to steal credit from Lettow-Vorbeck, though the general's ability to invade British colonies and keep a force undefeated will get less attention in a world with a shorter war, with more German victories. Maybe the Germans withdraw from Belgium (while keeping them under their hegemony, owning their mines, and maybe getting a port) and take Belgian Congo from them, regain Cameroon, and a bit of French Congo. Maybe the British keep Cameroon and they make do with only French and Belgian Congo.
 

Insider

Banned
[QUOTE="Clandango, post: 14346114, member: 46290"snip.[/QUOTE]
IMHO British would more likely allow Germans have some of their colonies than have control over Belgium. There is one exception of course. They would sooner see the whole France annexed than give Suez Canal to Germans
 
[QUOTE="Clandango, post: 14346114, member: 46290"snip.
IMHO British would more likely allow Germans have some of their colonies than have control over Belgium. There is one exception of course. They would sooner see the whole France annexed than give Suez Canal to Germans[/QUOTE]
I never said anything about the Suez Canal. And as mentioned, we needed to specify what precisely would be happening. I am on the side of many in here who think the Germans could have, at their strongest, got a colonial empire or a European hegemony out of the war. Not both, given how they didn't have the ships or footholds to go after them. We can cut out the part on any German ports on the channel, especially considering how far their Paris guns had shown to be able to shoot. It would put Sussex and the Low Countries at their mercy. The Germans may push for industrial control over Belgium, but might make due with having destroyed most of the railroads between Belgium and Franche, allowing more of it to be funneled into Germany. Might cut Arleland off from Belgium as it is just a smidge of land, giving it to the Grand Duke of Luxembourg when they forcibly annex his country. Again though, it is all about what time during the war this is. Think I once game across a series of maps someone made with possible peace proposals, based on what many diplomats and statemen said. Think it included something about "Socialists or Papists" for talking about one peace proposal. No idea how old that threat might be though, as I had been searching the archives for lots of maps on treaties back then.
 
For AH I would go with Togo, its a good colony but to indefensible.

For Germany I would go with, today's:
Cameroon (Germany)
DR of Congo (Belgium)
Rup. of Congo (France)
Equatorial Guinea (Spain, would need to purchase this)
Gabon (France)
Central African Republic (France)
Rwanda(German)
Burundi(German)
Tanzania(German)
Zambia(GB)
Malawi(GB)
Angola(Portugal like EG will need to be bought)
Namibia (German)
Tanzanian islands Zanzibar, Mafia, Kua, and Pemba (GB) mittle africa.png

For the Ottomans, probably the Saudi peninsula, with a agreement on no naval bases on the red sea or the Gulf of Aden.
 
Either Belgish Congo on steroids or the pinnacle of enlightened colonial administration. Depends on what school of thought you belong to. I prefer a rather realistic outcome like something in the middle. Your average nasty European colonialism & in the middle of the century abandoned because the German governenment decides it is not worth the trouble and geopolitcal not that important. Probably followed by a proxy rule just like most ex colonial nations OTL.
 
For AH I would go with Togo, its a good colony but to indefensible.

For Germany I would go with, today's:
Cameroon (Germany)
DR of Congo (Belgium)
Rup. of Congo (France)
Equatorial Guinea (Spain, would need to purchase this)
Gabon (France)
Central African Republic (France)
Rwanda(German)
Burundi(German)
Tanzania(German)
Zambia(GB)
Malawi(GB)
Angola(Portugal like EG will need to be bought)
Namibia (German)
Tanzanian islands Zanzibar, Mafia, Kua, and Pemba (GB)View attachment 312477

For the Ottomans, probably the Saudi peninsula, with a agreement on no naval bases on the red sea or the Gulf of Aden.
They wouldn't neet to purchase land from Portugal. Portugal was at war with Germany at the time. Most likely, they would revive the partition of the Portuguese colonies and split them with Britain. Under that plan, Germany would get almost all of Angola and the northern 1/3rd of Mozambique, with the rest going to the British.
 
What if we go for a minimalist Mittelafrika scenario? Germany grabs the Belgian Congo, French Congo, and the Central African Republic. A railroad is constructed from Douala, or alternatively Pointe-Noire in French Congo, across Africa to Dar es Salaam in Tanganjika.

This scenario is still workable even without gaining the entire Congo. Perhaps Katanga and the southern parts away from the Congo River are kept Belgian or exchanged with Britain. Or simply shave off the land north of the Uele River in the northeast of the Congo and add it to German colonial holdings in order to make a band of German colonies across Africa.

Ideally, the railroad would foster more trade and interconnectivity between these parts of Africa, and even after independence, would still be regarded as an essential link. Could lead to slightly more economic development than otherwise in the post-colonial nations, but not too much more.
 
They wouldn't neet to purchase land from Portugal. Portugal was at war with Germany at the time. Most likely, they would revive the partition of the Portuguese colonies and split them with Britain. Under that plan, Germany would get almost all of Angola and the northern 1/3rd of Mozambique, with the rest going to the British.
That was something basically done with an eye-roll by the British, for incase Portugal went bankrupt. No way are the British going to return all of Germany's colonies, followed by giving up swathes of their own land, as well as pulling away land from their centuries old allies to award their enemies.
 
That was something basically done with an eye-roll by the British, for incase Portugal went bankrupt. No way are the British going to return all of Germany's colonies, followed by giving up swathes of their own land, as well as pulling away land from their centuries old allies to award their enemies.

They could exchange Togoland. I think the key German strategy in Africa is being able to link up Kamerun and Tanganjika, and incidentally, that means Germany is going to need a better performance in Africa, because the way things went OTL, they'd be lucky for status quo ante bellum.

They'd have the best luck carving up the French and Belgian colonial empires. British colonies changing hands seems highly unlikely.
 
They could exchange Togoland. I think the key German strategy in Africa is being able to link up Kamerun and Tanganjika, and incidentally, that means Germany is going to need a better performance in Africa, because the way things went OTL, they'd be lucky for status quo ante bellum.

They'd have the best luck carving up the French and Belgian colonial empires. British colonies changing hands seems highly unlikely.
Togoland was the only German colony besides Samoa that turned a profit. It is hardly a battering chip. The British would also find it difficult to return many of the colonies, since the South Africans would feel cheated without Southwest Africa, and Australia and New were hugely proud of the islands they helped take. The Germans need to make concessions in Europe if they want anything in Africa. Thoigh from the first post, I see that it accepted withdrawal from Belgium. Considering the main question is about administration while saying that the Germans got French and Belgian colonies, I guess i might have been focusing on the wrong points in my posts.

Anyways, how about Beglian Congo, French Congo, and a third of Tanganyika? Maybe throw in Portuguese Congo for the heck of it. I see the Junkeresque estates based upon coffee, rubber, and similar things. They might keep the regular subdivisions, while trying to replace French speaking notables with those willing to speak German.
 

Deleted member 94680

I think come a tete-a-tete bargaining process between the Germans and the British, a division of Portuguese Africa and the Congo is the best that the Germans could hope for. Split the Portuguese possessions as agreed in the 1911-14 negotiations and agree to the British taking Katanga from the Congo, in exchange for the remainder of the colony.
 
Top