How would Indian history have developed, if the portugese beat the Marathas in India?

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How would Indian history have developed, if the Portuguese had not lost to the Marathas in India?

I would appreciate the views of those familiar with Portuguese colonial history in India regarding this scenario.

In the second half of 16th century, the Portuguese controlled the areas of Bardez, Marmugao, Salcette and Tiswadi in Goa and the towns of Bassein, Daman, Diu, Salsette and Bombay, together with their dependencies.

Apart from Bombay an it's dependencies which were ceded to the British in 1661 and 1668, the Portuguese lost the areas of Salsette and Bassein (along with their dependencies) to the Marathas. Thus, they lost control over most of their Northern Province, with the exception of from Daman and Diu.

The only territorial gains the Portuguese made was Dadra and Nagar Haveli in 1779

I am curious as to what would have turned out had the Portuguese prevailed.

Would they gone on to destroy the Marathas, war against the British and retaken Bombay?

Would they have succeeded and replaced the British as the major superpower in India, if this occurred or would they have lost?

Furthermore, would the Hindu character of the Marathas and the Islamic character of the Konkani Muslims have remained intact, or would they have become nominal Catholics, after having been forcibly evangelized by the sword and other tactics?

These are all interesting questions that i am looking forward to being answered.
 
Furthermore, would the Hindu character of the Marathas and the Islamic character of the Konkani Muslims have remained intact, or would they have become nominal Catholics, after having been forcibly evangelized by the sword and other tactics?

As a person of Malayalee Syrian Christian background I can tell you a bit about the Portuguese effect on religious affairs. In Kerala, the region where the Malayalees came from, the Portuguese sent in the Goan Inquisition but focused more on converting the low-caste population and on forcing the Syrian Orthodox to transfer allegiance to Roman Catholicism. I think you might see the same pattern in other Portuguese occupied territories- they didn't seem too willing to antagonise the Hindu aristocracy who, on the whole, didn't really care if lower castes or the outcastes were converted to Catholicism since in the caste system this didn't really change their lower status. With the Malayalees it's a bit different since the long term historical populations of Christians, Muslims and Jews meant that they were incorporated into the caste system (e.g. the Syrian Orthodox took the place of country gentry between the aristocracy and the low caste peasants- if produce or revenue passed through a Christian's hands it meant that the taint of the lower castes was neutralised, but this was specifically a Malayalee custom). With the rest of India if the Portuguese don't try to convert the upper castes they might not get that much resistance. Then again the rest of India wasn't as used to multi-religious communities as Kerala was.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Timing and the aponents strenght is the determining factor in the dominimation of India. If England had arrived when Portugal had to India they too could of been marginalized to a few small pockets. It was the breakup of the Maratha power in the middle of the 18th century that allowed the English to flourish. I do not think that England could of become the Raj of India if the Maratha Empire or its equivilent could of stayed strong. At its hight it controlled almost all of the Indian subcontinent northern parts. On the West coast of India the English had two small enclaves just like Portugal.

If when the Portuguese arrived and the following century before it was challenged first by the Dutch then the English the Portuguese had encountered no large power and no central opposition then maybe they could of created a strong enough province to push back other European powers.

As for change yes they changed they territory more that the English, by that I mean both culturally and religously they were more zelous. Would their ways of backfired just like it did to the English in the 1850s when they finally put a stop on their westernizing and just left the Indians to themselves.

One of the interesting things I noticed in reading was that the English were more business men, interested in buviness first so they were perfectly happy to let the Indians have their language, religion and customs as long as they continued to make a profit. The Portuguese were interested in making money but they mixed things up with introduction of language, religion which can create greater opposition to their rule.
 
@ Flocculencio: I disagree. In Goa, the Portuguese realized that it was the upper caste Bamons (Brahmins) and Chardos (Kshatriyas) who wielded much power and influence over the locals. Therefore, the Portuguese and the Jesuits placed much greater emphasis on converting these classes, seeing that by doing so they would be ensuring that the loyalty of these castes and at the same time, be precipitating a mass conversion among the lower classes as well. Later, when the Bamons revolted, the Portuguese resorted to force tactics as well, through the penalty of death, expulsion, torture or having their possessions confiscated. Any uprising over there by the upper castes were ruthlessly crushed.
 

Lusitania

Donor
It was not untill 1760s when the jesuit and many other religous orders left Portugal due to the action and policies of the marques de Pombal that the Inquisition and attack on non-catholics in Portuguese India ended. Today there is a split in religions in Goa between the old Goa and new territories.

The old Goa, areas conquered prior to the 1750 is very Catholic, areas conquered following 1750s in in large part Hindu.
 
I'm aware of that. The Portuguese zeal had died out by the time they accquired the Novas Conquistas. But the Portuguese had fought against the Marathas in the mid 17th century. So, i'm curious as to how things would have turned out had they won.
 
@ Flocculencio: I disagree. In Goa, the Portuguese realized that it was the upper caste Bamons (Brahmins) and Chardos (Kshatriyas) who wielded much power and influence over the locals. Therefore, the Portuguese and the Jesuits placed much greater emphasis on converting these classes, seeing that by doing so they would be ensuring that the loyalty of these castes and at the same time, be precipitating a mass conversion among the lower classes as well. Later, when the Bamons revolted, the Portuguese resorted to force tactics as well, through the penalty of death, expulsion, torture or having their possessions confiscated. Any uprising over there by the upper castes were ruthlessly crushed.

In Goa, perhaps, but as I've said, in Kerala things were a bit different. Perhaps this is because they weren't able to exert quite so much force there as compared to Goa which was, after all, their main base. It all depends which pattern is seen in the rest of India
 

Lusitania

Donor
All right, lets suppose that the Portuguese had the ability and strength to not only conquer little enclaves but were able to make substancial movement inland. When the English and Dutch came a calling they would find a hybrid portuguese-india society controlling great tracks of the coast. blocking them from the Indian Interior.

This hybrid would definitely be catholic and the dominant language would be Portuguese supplanting all other native languages and religions. The interior and north would for a long time be Indian but depending on the sizer and strength of the Portuguese they too could be overcome the degree of the convertion would depend on many factors.

The Portuguese would of transformed the Indian subcontinent more than the english ever did.
 
@ Lusitania: I have read your work on "Rebirth of an Empire "O Renascimento de um Império" and am very impressed by it. So, i was hoping that you could construct a detailed chain of events beginning with the Portuguese victory over the Marathas and it's aftermath lasting till the mid 20th century. It would be very interesting and i would like to see more of your views on this subject.
 
All right, lets suppose that the Portuguese had the ability and strength to not only conquer little enclaves but were able to make substancial movement inland. When the English and Dutch came a calling they would find a hybrid portuguese-india society controlling great tracks of the coast. blocking them from the Indian Interior.

This hybrid would definitely be catholic and the dominant language would be Portuguese supplanting all other native languages and religions. The interior and north would for a long time be Indian but depending on the sizer and strength of the Portuguese they too could be overcome the degree of the convertion would depend on many factors.

How do they do this? Culturally converting vast regions of different cultures with only the resources of a relatively small European nation which also has other commitments? Doing it in Goa is one thing but you'll note they didn't even manage to do this in the outlying Goan territories. How would this be able to work on an even larger scale?
 
How do they do this? Culturally converting vast regions of different cultures with only the resources of a relatively small European nation which also has other commitments? Doing it in Goa is one thing but you'll note they didn't even manage to do this in the outlying Goan territories. How would this be able to work on an even larger scale?

Vinho verde. Large quantities of it.

Oh, no, not for the Indians.

I think that's what Lusitania had before posting that.

Don't misunderstand me, it's not that I disapprove of the concept, it is that I have trouble with its plausibility. I'd really,really like to be proved wrong and hear a believable POD and ATL where that happens.
 

Lusitania

Donor
@ Lusitania: I have read your work on "Rebirth of an Empire "O Renascimento de um Império" and am very impressed by it. So, i was hoping that you could construct a detailed chain of events beginning with the Portuguese victory over the Marathas and it's aftermath lasting till the mid 20th century. It would be very interesting and i would like to see more of your views on this subject.

A) If you are meaning a timeline where the English never dominate and are sidelined in India, that is a tall order. Not one that is imposssible but I am currrently pre-writting the middle of the 19th century, it is getting a bit crazy because I am now writting the History of over half a dozen countries so it would be a bit of a stretch to take on a new timeline, that being said it does not mean I have not in the past contemplated it.

First and foremost the Portuguese could not of done it with the resources they had in OTL. There just were not enough of them, but I do have a "New Timeline" which I was hopping to start following this one about a larger country which could of accomplished.

B) Now speaking of Portuguese overcoming the Maratha and the Portuguese India lasts to the 20 century, who said we did not, I have not posted the posts on Portugal-India-Maratha-British East India Comapny orgy yet, stay tuned.

How do they do this? Culturally converting vast regions of different cultures with only the resources of a relatively small European nation which also has other commitments? Doing it in Goa is one thing but you'll note they didn't even manage to do this in the outlying Goan territories. How would this be able to work on an even larger scale?

You have hit it on the nail, the Portuguese with their current size could not of done much more especially in the 15-16th century considering the economic, political and militarily opposition it encountered. If we need them to do this then the Portuguese have to change themselves and what we end up is a hybrid Portuguese-Indian Empire that is Catholic but also influenced by the foods and culture from India. In OTL Portuguese culture, cusine was greatly influenced by the contact with India. As Portuguese we do not know how to cook without alot of spices which coincidentaly came from India.


Vinho verde. Large quantities of it.

Oh, no, not for the Indians.

I think that's what Lusitania had before posting that.

Don't misunderstand me, it's not that I disapprove of the concept, it is that I have trouble with its plausibility. I'd really,really like to be proved wrong and hear a believable POD and ATL where that happens.

THat would be great we could turn European Portugal into a huge vineyard to feed the masses in India. I am liking it allready. The Portuguese like the English could of done it over time slowly with little to no European opposition but like the English would of used native soldiers or at least losts of African ones. But the opposition to its rule would of been greater due to its attack against the Infidels.

When the Portuguese arrived in India one of its first acts was the destruction of several ships filled with pilgrims to Mecca.
 
Code:
Now speaking of Portuguese overcoming the Maratha and the Portuguese India lasts to the 20 century, who said we did not, I have not posted the posts on Portugal-India-Maratha-British East India Comapny orgy yet, stay tuned.

Yes, i'm aware of the fact that Portuguese India lasted into the 20th century. I was actually asking for a detailed scenario in how a significantly larger Portuguese India would have been well into the 20th century.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Code:
Now speaking of Portuguese overcoming the Maratha and the Portuguese India lasts to the 20 century, who said we did not, I have not posted the posts on Portugal-India-Maratha-British East India Comapny orgy yet, stay tuned.

Yes, i'm aware of the fact that Portuguese India lasted into the 20th century. I was actually asking for a detailed scenario in how a significantly larger Portuguese India would have been well into the 20th century.

I was actually talking about my time line, not OTL.
 
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