How would Confederate history books view G. Washington?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by althisfan, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. althisfan Banned

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    Recently I was at Mount Vernon and saw that during the Civil War both Union and Confederate troops saw the house as "neutral holy ground" and often went there on a pilgrimage and toured the grounds and paid their respect to his grave. So, as time went on would Southern history books (for like elementary and high school kids) consider the South the true successor to the USA and the "USA" as a corrupt version? Would Washington through Buchanan as "canon" and presidents? Could Washington's birthday be a Confederate holiday? Or would US history be considered semi-"colonial" (outside of events that took place in the South) and "national" history begins in 1860? Jamestown mentioned, but not the Pilgrims; Battle of Yorktown but not Saratoga? How would a national history develop with an independent CSA?
     
  2. The Tai-Pan A Better Deal

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    Hamilton, Adams and such would get big boosts in the USA and even more vilified/forgotten in the CSA.
     
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  3. Lalli Well-Known Member

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    Probably they would worship Washington as much as OTL Americans do. Southerners would see Washington as opponent of tyranny like Davis, Lee and other Southern "Founder Fathers" were and thinking that later politicians ruined Washington's heritage.
     
  4. dcharleos Donor

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Seal_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

    You tell me.
     
  5. althisfan Banned

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    • Warning
  6. dcharleos Donor

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    Seriously?

    You wanted to know about how George Washington would be viewed in a surviving Confederacy. He was, and would continue to be an object of reverence, as is evidenced by the fact that he's on the Seal of the Confederacy. The image of which was copied from the statue of Washington that was in Richmond.

    I'm sorry to have offended you.
     
  7. Tyler96 Well-Known Member

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    Depends on how the Confederate victory is achieved, but if Lee still rises to become the major Confederate hero then his personal connection with (and reverence for?) Washington could be significant.
     
  8. mad orc Well-Known Member

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    The confederates would be like how Taiwan is today.
    They would certainly love Washington and the early US
     
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  9. althisfan Banned

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    You still don't seem to have read anything more than the tin. Go back and read the whole opening post and see if your "answer" answered any of my specific questions.
     
  10. dcharleos Donor

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    Stop being snippy. I already apologized for offending you.

    I read the whole post. Instead of assuming that my answer comes from bad motives or a desire to put you down, instead consider that I think that my answer answered those questions, or at least the ones I thought were important. Instead of calling me names, ask a constructive question, such as "can you elaborate?" Instead of criticizing me for answering the question in your title and not all the questions in the post, maybe reformulate your title so that it gives me a better impression of the subject matter you think is most important, instead of burying the lede.

    So: the South already thought of itself as the true successor to the framers. Just as schismatic religions think of themselves as the true interpreters of God's plan, the Confederates thought of themselves as the true interpreters of the wishes of the framers, who, by that time, were already considered holy figures in America's civic religion. There would be no reason for this to change, as is evidenced by the extensive invoking of the framers and the Constitution and the use of these personages as permanent symbolic totems, one example of which if the Seal of the Confederacy.

    Could Washington's birthday be a Confederate holiday? Of course it could. He was already extensively venerated, and the birthdays of venerated figures are often celebrated as holidays.

    As far as the other questions, they are either very broad, such as as "how would national history develop?" or are presented as what I consider to be false dichotomies. Examples of these would be "are Washington through Buchanan 'canon' [or] does national history begin in 1860." The answer is yes to both.
     
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  11. Mr.J Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, Washington being seen by both the US and CS the way Sun Yat-Sen is seen by the ROC and PRC is a good comparison. Both sides would try to claim him as their founder.
     
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  12. althisfan Banned

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    Would Jefferson Davis be the 1st President, or would they start their list with Washington and continue as if Lincoln was never president? What I'm trying to get some knowledge on is that was Washington revered because he is a Virginian and his military exploits and being the "Father of the Nation" or did it include him as "President of THIS nation". If you start your numbering with Washington then you have to admit that people like both Adams and Van Buren are a part of your history as presidents, and Hamilton existed. I'm trying to figure out what a 9th grade "American history" book would look like in a CSA that exists in, let's say the 1910s since that would be 50 years and therefore a new generation with no direct memory of the Civil War is now in charge as educators and authors in writing history (I assume they would still use the term American, or would they?)
     
  13. RightHoJeeves A gentleman's personal gentleman. Banned

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    Washington would continue to be venerated as an honorable Virginian who stood up to tyranny much like the beloved Robert E. Lee. I still think Jeff Davis is supplanted in Southern affection by Bobby Lee even if the CSA somehow wins but at least he won't be scapegoated by Lost Causers for every poor decision or defect that afflicted the Confederacy during the war.

    The North would still venerate Washington as well but I imagine some revanchist political movement will arise ready to strike back at the CSA as soon as the North is ready for round II. They would probably want to claim Washington as a figure who supported inseparable union which is why he took the job as the first president of a new nation with a strong executive and federal government.
     
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  14. dcharleos Donor

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    Ah. I think that Davis is still thought of as being the first president, but that Washington is thought of as being the "Father of the Nation," as you put it.
     
  15. The Late Dentarthurdent Active Member

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    coming from someone who grew up in the south, I would totally agree with you on that feeling of worship that most southerner's feel about George, but the question is probably a moot point as I simply don't a way for the South to have won that war, they simply didn't have the industrial base or the North's secret weapon of McCormacks reapers that allowed their farm boys to be on the front rather than staying home on the farms
     
  16. althisfan Banned

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    Ironically McCormack was against the Republican Party and outspoken against Lincoln causing him to have his patents not extended.
     
  17. CalBear Your Ursus arctos californicus Moderator Moderator Donor

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    He actually answered the question very nicely.

    That you didn't like the fact he did so is not reason to be nasty about it.

    Don't like answers except ones that support your world view? Don't ask questions, especially here.
     
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  18. althisfan Banned

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    Please read the entire thread. I never said his "answer" didn't support my world view. I said it didn't answer my question. And he did then answer the question fuller. As for "very nicely" in my upbringing responding with "you tell me" and a link is not "very nicely" and not proper manners. You don't respond to a question with "you tell me". That is not an answer I think anyone's mother would approve of. I find it extremely rude of you to say that I didn't like an answer because it didn't fit my world view, at no point did I ever say i disagreed with the answer nor have I put forth my "world view" or my own answer! I came here SEEKING new information and answers, I got a "you tell me". I would like an apology. I feeel your handling of this was extremely out of line and could have been done nicer yourself.
     
  19. CalBear Your Ursus arctos californicus Moderator Moderator Donor

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    Really going to make this your Hill?

    You were out of line. You were reported by another member. You were warned. You would be well served to consider the warning for exactly what it was, a warning to cease and desist.



    Your call.
     
  20. sloreck Grunt Bear

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    The CSA considered themselves as true heirs to Washington and his ideals, and that the north had deviated from the original principles. After all Washington owned slaves, was an "aristocrat", and a Virginian. What's not to like.