How would Byzantine military titles have developed ?

Whilst I can find information on what they WERE, its obvious that with over a thousand years of history, the useage of titles, and the incidence of them changed over time. Articles which treat the "Byzantine Navy" as a homogenous artefact which didn't change and evolve in its structure seem to rather miss the point.

If we look at 1204 on the one hand, and 1400 on the other, were the developments in military rank, both naval and army, obvious ones, or did the whole dislocation to tradition that 1204 represented change things in ways that would not have happened by natural progression ?

If we assume that the Byzantine Empire continued into early modern times, would the terminology of rank and offices have changed much, or evolved further ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Whilst I can find information on what they WERE, its obvious that with over a thousand years of history, the useage of titles, and the incidence of them changed over time. Articles which treat the "Byzantine Navy" as a homogenous artefact which didn't change and evolve in its structure seem to rather miss the point.

If we look at 1204 on the one hand, and 1400 on the other, were the developments in military rank, both naval and army, obvious ones, or did the whole dislocation to tradition that 1204 represented change things in ways that would not have happened by natural progression ?

If we assume that the Byzantine Empire continued into early modern times, would the terminology of rank and offices have changed much, or evolved further ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

I think both 1071 and 1204 caused large dislocations that changed military titles more than would have been the case normally. At Manzikert military units that had existed for 1,000 years were destroyed forever, for example.

As to how they would develop into modern times, hard to say - it really depends on what happens, I guess!

I think the basic ranks would stay largely the same - they are based on the number of troops they command, and I would note the similar Turkish system hasn't changed much in the same time period: yüzbaşı literally means "head of 100" = captain, where the Byzantines had a hecatontarch, which means the same thing. Probably some ranks would fall out of use with changes in military technology and tactics, and in any case, we're talking about 600 years of constant change, so you can pretty much do whatever you want!
 
John, thanks for the reply :)

One thing I noticed was that in the 14th century a title approximating to Admiral (and spelt rather similarly) appeared at a high level. No doubt this was due to Latin influence, and I assume it wouldn't have appeared in the normal course of things

Of course, tho, you're right in saying that it depends on what happens :) I've a vague idea, but as the timeline is the background to what I want to write, I don't want to get too mired in detail that everyone is blasting. Instead, I'll mention the past in passing and it will become or look more plausible.

But to even start writing I really need an idea of the ranks and titles to use. I also need airship ranks, but was thinking of aerial cavalry or some such analogue.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
The term Admiral comes from an Arabic word I thought, commander of the sea, which different Italians (Genoese and Sicilian Normans) used as a title for their highest naval commander.

The Byzantine titles changed faster after Manzikert, as the Empire started coming apart and the Imperial bureaucracy lost its long-term structure. Post-1204 a title's power was drawn almost entirely from the title-holders personality (as opposed to strong leaders getting certain titles as happened before). So you have the freedom to do whatever you want.

The terms for aerial commanders probably depend in large part on who invents that kind of thing. It seems like the inventing country gets signficant say-so on what things are called, since they make the first words for everything (witness English's place in aviation OTL).
 
The modern Greek military ranks are based partly on the Byzantine ones, partly on ancient ones and partly on British ones:


Air Force
Category Greek rank Transliteration British Equivalent NATO
General Officers
Πτέραρχος Pterarkhos Air Chief Marshal (Lit. "wing-commander") OF-9
Αντιπτέραρχος Antipterarkhos Air Marshal (Lit. "vice-wing-commander") OF-8
Υποπτέραρχος Hypopterarkhos Air Vice-Marshal (lit. "under-wing-commander") OF-7
Ταξίαρχος Αεροπορίας Taxiarkhos Aeroporias Air Commodore (lit. "air brigadier") OF-6
Senior Officers
Σμήναρχος Smenarkhos Group Captain (lit "flock commander") OF-5
Αντισμήναρχος Antismenarkhos Wing Commander (lit. "vice-flock-commander") OF-4
Επισμηναγός Epismenagos Squadron Leader (lit. "over-flock-leader") OF-3
Junior Officers
Σμηναγός Smenagos Flight Lieutenant (lit. "flock-leader") OF-2
Υποσμηναγός Hyposmenagos Flying Officer (lit. "under-flock-leader") OF-1
Ανθυποσμηναγός Anthyposmenagos Pilot Officer (lit. "vice-under-flock-leader") OF-1

Army
Category Greek Rank Transliteration English Equivalent NATO
General Officers
[Στρατἀρχης Stratarkhis Field-Marshal (lit. "army commander") OF-10, no longer used]
Στρατηγός Stratigos General OF-9
Αντιστράτηγος Antistratigos Lieutenant General (lit. "vice-general") OF-8
Υποστράτηγος Ypostratigos Major General (lit. "under-general") OF-7
Ταξίαρχος Taxiarkhos Brigadier General (lit. "brigade-leader") OF-6
Field Grade Officers
Συνταγματάρχης Syntagmatarkhis Colonel (lit. "regiment-commander") OF-5
Αντισυνταγματάρχης Antisyntagmatarkhis Lieutenant Colonel (lit. "vice-regiment-commander") OF-4
Ταγματάρχης Tagmatarkhis Major (lit. "battalion-commander") OF-3
Company Grade Officers
Λοχαγός Lokhagos Captain (lit. "company-leader") OF-2
Υπολοχαγός Ypolokhagos Lieutenant (lit. "under-company-leader") OF-1
Ανθυπολοχαγός Anthypolokhagos Second Lieutenant (lit. "vice-under-company-leader") OF-1


Navy
Category Greek Rank Transliteration English Equivalent NATO
Flag Officers
Ναύαρχος Navarkhos Admiral OF-9
Αντιναύαρχος Antinavarkhos Vice Admiral OF-8
Υποναύαρχος Yponavarkhos Rear Admiral (lit. "under-admiral") OF-7
Αρχιπλοίαρχος Arkhiploiarkhos Commodore (lit. "chief captain") OF-6
Senior Officers
Πλοίαρχος Ploiarkhos Captain OF-5
Αντιπλοίαρχος Antiploiarkhos Commander (lit. "vice-captain") OF-4
Πλωτάρχης Plotarkhis Lieutenant Commander (lit. "boat commander") OF-3
Junior Officers
Υποπλοίαρχος Ypoploiarkhos Lieutenant (lit. "under-captain") OF-2
Ανθυποπλοίαρχος Anthypoploiarkhos Sub-Lieutenant (lit. "vice-under-captain") OF-1
Σημαιοφόρος Simaiophoros Ensign (lit. "flag-bearer") OF-1

And if you want Byzantine complexity, take a look at Imperial Russian military ranks...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_ranks#1722-1917
 
John, thanks for the reply :)

One thing I noticed was that in the 14th century a title approximating to Admiral (and spelt rather similarly) appeared at a high level. No doubt this was due to Latin influence, and I assume it wouldn't have appeared in the normal course of things

Of course, tho, you're right in saying that it depends on what happens :) I've a vague idea, but as the timeline is the background to what I want to write, I don't want to get too mired in detail that everyone is blasting. Instead, I'll mention the past in passing and it will become or look more plausible.

But to even start writing I really need an idea of the ranks and titles to use. I also need airship ranks, but was thinking of aerial cavalry or some such analogue.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

As Matthew said, Admiral is from Arabic "amir-al-bahr" leaving off "bahr" (sea), so it's "commander of the."

The Byzantine fleet commander was the Megas Doux. Amiralios was a subordinate senior commander.

I would think airships would just use naval ranks, altough a whole new system would be cool.

If you use cavalry ranks, my favorite has always been protostrator.
 
I've always reckoned gliders were under-utilised and could imagine in a mountainous and hilly frontier they would get more use. In OTL Cayley developed working models by the 1850s, whilst other guys whose names escaped me developed them in the coming decades. If gliders develop a military role, then I could see them be named the equivalent of light, scouting cavalry.

When viable airships come along later they could take the terminology up from the existing glider formations, and thus have some sort of heavy cavalry analogue for the air

A lot of my thoughts are still in the process of development, but being different is one of the things that makes life interesting

I'm also thinking that a large modern Byzantine empire would make use of viceroys rather than military governors or under-kings. I was looking at the title granted to the sub-ruler of Cyprus as possibly being used in this position?

Also, I was thinking that at some stage there would be a conscious revival of Imperial styles, perhaps unit names of some great antiquity created in a new role for a modern age.

I'm also trying to set a base date of the mid 1890s, with some technological elements maybe 10 years ahead of their time, but not all. I'm looking at increased steam propulsion - armoured steam traction engines, early caterpillar tractors, also steam cars for more general elite travel. I had been thinking of using the term Kataphractoi loosely for armoured trains, and then having applied more officially to the armoured steam engines and tractors...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Exarchos I think for the viceroys

I have heard the word "exarchate" somewhere but I thought it was in a religious sense...maybe it made sense in that sphere too

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Exarchos I think for the viceroys

I have heard the word "exarchate" somewhere but I thought it was in a religious sense...maybe it made sense in that sphere too

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

I think you mean the Exarchate of Ravenna. But that is well, "Ex" from the core empire.

If Strategos is out Doux need not be. If you want an "arch" I rather like Eparch, the use of which is distinctively Byzantine. And in modern Greece they use Nomarch for large provinces. Domestikos could also evolve into civilian use.

(Personally I don't see why you need shy away from strategos, all the titles have military/quasi-military origins.

Re admiralos: Megas Doux is slightly late, Drungarios was used in the high Empire, and sounds more distinctively Byzantine
 
I think you mean the Exarchate of Ravenna. But that is well, "Ex" from the core empire.

If Strategos is out Doux need not be. If you want an "arch" I rather like Eparch, the use of which is distinctively Byzantine. And in modern Greece they use Nomarch for large provinces. Domestikos could also evolve into civilian use.

(Personally I don't see why you need shy away from strategos, all the titles have military/quasi-military origins.

Re admiralos: Megas Doux is slightly late, Drungarios was used in the high Empire, and sounds more distinctively Byzantine

Oh right, yes it was Ravenna, but if the same title of Exarchos was used for other Eastern viceroys (and from what I read it seems to have been) then it would do for Byzantine viceroys in Samarkand or Kalat.

I do like the sound of Drungarios, it kind of rolls off the tongue. Do you think Byzantine battleships (ironclads/pre-dreadnoughts) would still bear the name dromon ? Or megas dromon perhaps ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Oh right, yes it was Ravenna, but if the same title of Exarchos was used for other Eastern viceroys (and from what I read it seems to have been) then it would do for Byzantine viceroys in Samarkand or Kalat.

I do like the sound of Drungarios, it kind of rolls off the tongue. Do you think Byzantine battleships (ironclads/pre-dreadnoughts) would still bear the name dromon ? Or megas dromon perhaps ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

I think Samarkand counts as Ex:eek::p

I don't see why not with Dromon. After all, it's your timeline... My personal view is that you need a little change but not too much - too much it ceases to be very Byzantine, too little is loses credibility.
 
I knew droungarios rang a bell - I was looking at the tagma yesterday, and the ranks there, and how sometimes other ranks were used and thought I liked the titles droungarios, tribounos, drakonarios

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I knew droungarios rang a bell - I was looking at the tagma yesterday, and the ranks there, and how sometimes other ranks were used and thought I liked the titles droungarios, tribounos, drakonarios

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Be careful - some of those are tied to numbers. As Wozza said, Droungarios was the classic Byzantine title, and you can throw a Megas in front of it for the head of the fleet.

Kataphraktoi were the armored cavalry, but they also had Klibanophoroi, which were super-heavy cavalry - that might be good for armored trains, so you can save cataphracts for armored cars or tanks.

I did a lot of research on this as I was writing a TL many, many years ago - I don't know if I have my notes anywhere.
 
Be careful - some of those are tied to numbers. As Wozza said, Droungarios was the classic Byzantine title, and you can throw a Megas in front of it for the head of the fleet.

Kataphraktoi were the armored cavalry, but they also had Klibanophoroi, which were super-heavy cavalry - that might be good for armored trains, so you can save cataphracts for armored cars or tanks.

I did a lot of research on this as I was writing a TL many, many years ago - I don't know if I have my notes anywhere.

Ah, thank you!

Yes, I took the 3 titles I suggested as alternatives to the usual tagma system, so they are a sort of heirarchy of ranks linked to how the smaller units formed into the larger ones.

I was mainly thinking that if later there was a military reform of later practice, ie if what replaced the tagma system was later reformed away, then they may well look towards older rank-titles as new ones

I guess that the armoured trains could later gain the super-heavy naming after the kataphractoi name is transferred to the steam tractors etc

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Taking a suggestion from Sargon, I am thinking that the ship types in Byzantine parlance should be

phoractoi = battleships
(literally armoured)

dromon = cruisers
(literally running)
with megas dromon for large or armoured cruisers

To this I rather like the idea of the early submarines being known as
chelandion
(eels)

Obviously these terms would not be in use everywhere, tho Egypt may have borrowed them. In Britain the equivalent terms would probably be battleship / frigate / corvette, and I don't know what for submarines...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Another title that might be useful would be Katepano, which did function as a sort of viceroy. It was originally a naval title associated with naval themes, the best example being southern Italy, but it later became a general term for a regional military government, such as the Katepanate of Iberia in the Caucasus. Drungarios is also a favorite of mine, as is Strategos (which is still used by the Greek Army today). There are also some more obscure titles, such as Kraton, which seems to be some sort of supreme commander over a given military theatre.

I hope this helps. I'm really looking forward to this timeline-you seem to have reached the holy grail of Byzantine steampunk.
 
Another title that might be useful would be Katepano, which did function as a sort of viceroy. It was originally a naval title associated with naval themes, the best example being southern Italy, but it later became a general term for a regional military government, such as the Katepanate of Iberia in the Caucasus. Drungarios is also a favorite of mine, as is Strategos (which is still used by the Greek Army today). There are also some more obscure titles, such as Kraton, which seems to be some sort of supreme commander over a given military theatre.

I hope this helps. I'm really looking forward to this timeline-you seem to have reached the holy grail of Byzantine steampunk.

Thank you :) Ideas are flowing, and I've roughly named some of the characters too, as well as given them ranks. I've also got a name for the airship so I should be able to write the piece without resorting to loads of XXX

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
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