How would an English empire in France develop?

As said in various threads : using "Empire" for a loose collection of titles that left Plantagenet demesne as far they entered it is hilariously exagerating.

If England doesn't suceed to claim french throne, it's most likely that these titles will return to more direct capetian control. After all, even during the apogee of Plantagenets, many lords in the continent led an independent policy or tried to (hell, even Henry II sons tried, and were fairly sucessful thanks to french king help).

This was defenitly too much of a puzzle to evolve in something like one state.
 
I'm not sure Normandy-Anjou-Brittany is unreasonable (OR Aquitaine, maybe), but it would take some strong monarchs - and probably have a very large impact on France and its monarchs.
 
As said in various threads : using "Empire" for a loose collection of titles that left Plantagenet demesne as far they entered it is hilariously exagerating.

If England doesn't suceed to claim french throne, it's most likely that these titles will return to more direct capetian control. After all, even during the apogee of Plantagenets, many lords in the continent led an independent policy or tried to (hell, even Henry II sons tried, and were fairly sucessful thanks to french king help).

This was defenitly too much of a puzzle to evolve in something like one state.

I appreciate that might be the most likely, but what about the less likely paths? Perhaps if a peace treaty removed these territories from the Kingdom of France?
 
I appreciate that might be the most likely, but what about the less likely paths? Perhaps if a peace treaty removed these territories from the Kingdom of France?

That happened for the Aquitaine IOTL, in the Treaty of Bretigny. Edward III renounced his claim to the French throne and ceded a number of his continental possessions in exchange for an expanded Lordship of the Aquitaine, which was to be a dependency of the English crown only, held without any duty of homage to France.

The treaty lasted for about nine years, until Charles V of France intervened in a tax dispute between England and their Aquitainian vassals. Edward the Black Prince had intervened in a Castillian civil war, and raised taxes in the Aquitaine in order to fund it.

If you want the treaty to hold, either avert the rebellion against English rule in the Aquitaine (stop the Black Prince from intervening in Castille, thus removing the need for the tax increase), or prevent France from intervening once the rebellion starts.
 
The thing is, by that point, the Angevin possessions had been seriously diminished. I'm imagining a similar situation where Greater Anjou, Normandy, Brittany etc, are all in English hands.
 
If you want the treaty to hold, either avert the rebellion against English rule in the Aquitaine (stop the Black Prince from intervening in Castille, thus removing the need for the tax increase), or prevent France from intervening once the rebellion starts.

The treaty wasn't really applied. The exchange of castles and territories never happened fully and it's clear Treaty of Bretigny was concieved (at least by french side) as a temporary solution.

Except Gascony, the Bretigny Aquitaine lords and cities were simply too much tied with France economically and politically to be durably put in english dependency without an english king on throne of France.
 
The thing is, by that point, the Angevin possessions had been seriously diminished. I'm imagining a similar situation where Greater Anjou, Normandy, Brittany etc, are all in English hands.

How are they staying in the hands of the Plantagents?

The French kings are going to do everything they can to take those - both for the gain directly and the gain from weakening a massively overmighty vassal.
 
Why is everyone positing a unified France to oppose England? ISTM your best best is to stop the French crown from uniting, so England can just exercise overlordship and influence in certain territories.
 
Why is everyone positing a unified France to oppose England? ISTM your best best is to stop the French crown from uniting, so England can just exercise overlordship and influence in certain territories.

Because by the point the Plantagents have this big hunkin' domain, you need a POD to make France break - not necessarily hard, but it would need to happen despite what's happened up to the 1150s.
 
Why is everyone positing a unified France to oppose England? ISTM your best best is to stop the French crown from uniting, so England can just exercise overlordship and influence in certain territories.

Easier said than done. You see, feudal dominance by the king was a great legitimizing force : it allowed the feudal princes to assure their powers.

To resume, because they were vassalized by him, they could ensure that their rule on their own vassality was institutionalized. So, you need to delegitimize greatly the french king to make different french or occitan princes to refuse acknowledging him.

You have diverse occasions to do that, but not on the whole kingdom (rather by making two sides : one pro-royal, other pro-feudal). So you'll not reach likely a complete desintegration.
 
The Armagnac clan were very loyal to the French crown and had a claim to the Duchy of Gascony, they were a threat to the Plantagenet rule in Gascony.
 
One of the biggest things to think about is the size of France. Taking a normal pace it would the best part of two weeks to get from London to Berwick. Eight days if you are really pushing it. Unless you have poeple you can trust to the max, keeping the English parts of France is much more of a pain. just crossing the channel could take a month. Unless, lets say, Edward III, could take and keep the throne of France I can't see England keeping it's hold of their parts of France for long. Unless;

1) A deal with France to swap someparts of the west and south for England having the north forever.

2) Having no stupid English kings:rolleyes:.

3) Taking out Scotland, so no fighting on two fronts. and keeping the hell out of Ireland.

4) Better allies. Let HRE have parts of France?

5) No Black Death.

Just my 2p worth.
 
3: Fighting on two fronts doesn't seem to have meant much given how weak the Scottish front was.

4: The HRE being able to take part of France would require a stronger HRE.

5: Which helps how?
 
Top