How would an Anglo-French Dual Monarchy be governed?

GdwnsnHo

Banned
In my mind the answer is quite complex, much more than the "Obviously Paris is the capital and England is the province" which always seems to be the trope that is rolled out (no offense intended to anyone who agrees with that trope, I simply don't)

1) Yes, Paris is valuable, and is probably the most important city in the Empire. However, of the two real potential capitals, Paris is the most vulnerable in case of invasion. An alternative is London - safer from invasion. Another alternative is a purpose-built capital, somewhere roughly central, coastal, and safe - which makes me think of Brittany, or Normandy. The cheapest alternative, and potentially the best (IMO, my choice) is to have an administrative capital for each region - London, Paris, Toulouse, but have a roaming court that visits the various major cities in England and France over a series of years before repeating. Either that or a purpose-built capital on the north/northwestern coast of France.

2) France may be divided into multiple subcultures, but the most loyal to the Anglo-French Monarchs were the English (oddly enough), and the Gascons. Whilst a King might want to have Frenchmen about, and be one himself, if the locals don't see that, he'll need loyal enforcers - which means Englishmen and Gascons. Their increased importance will likely mean that formerly insignificant English, Gascon, or Anglo-French nobles, and sergeants are a prime group to recruit new nobles from. -> French noble rebels? Who do you want to replace him with? Another potentially rebellious Frenchman from the old regime, or do you uplift someone who owes loyalty to you alone?

So yeah, French-Speaking Kings, of England and France, with a rule largely enforced by Anglo-French, English, and Gascon Lords. add in the likelihood of the Kings granting a Parliament in exchange for concessions or support from the nobility in a time of crisis, and I'd expect various smaller French Parliaments, a larger British Parliament, all of which can be summoned together for the biggest issues (i.e. War-Funding).

Add in the now strategic importance of conquering Scotland and Ireland to secure the British Isles and prevent someone attacking the most loyal part of the Empire, and you've probably got another two potential parliaments there.

I do love the idea of a ruling class speaking a mix of Gascon, English and French. Especially as it merges into one language.

TL;DR Initial mix of Parliament and Feudal lords, with the latter being replaced with loyal uplifted replacements, until such point that a Parliament needs to be provided. Either a roaming court with a variety of administrative centres, or a brand new administrative centre that is more defensible than Paris, and on the coast. Scotland and Ireland rapidly conquered and eventually forming their own Parliaments.
 
The english and the gascons were the most loyal to the Plantagenet because the Plantagenet were their dynasts. If the Plantagenet were accepted by all of France as their lawful king, then things would be very different. The heart of such a dual kingdom would be southern England and northern France.
 
In my mind the answer is quite complex, much more than the "Obviously Paris is the capital and England is the province" which always seems to be the trope that is rolled out (no offense intended to anyone who agrees with that trope, I simply don't)

1) Yes, Paris is valuable, and is probably the most important city in the Empire. However, of the two real potential capitals, Paris is the most vulnerable in case of invasion. An alternative is London - safer from invasion. Another alternative is a purpose-built capital, somewhere roughly central, coastal, and safe - which makes me think of Brittany, or Normandy. The cheapest alternative, and potentially the best (IMO, my choice) is to have an administrative capital for each region - London, Paris, Toulouse, but have a roaming court that visits the various major cities in England and France over a series of years before repeating. Either that or a purpose-built capital on the north/northwestern coast of France.

2) France may be divided into multiple subcultures, but the most loyal to the Anglo-French Monarchs were the English (oddly enough), and the Gascons. Whilst a King might want to have Frenchmen about, and be one himself, if the locals don't see that, he'll need loyal enforcers - which means Englishmen and Gascons. Their increased importance will likely mean that formerly insignificant English, Gascon, or Anglo-French nobles, and sergeants are a prime group to recruit new nobles from. -> French noble rebels? Who do you want to replace him with? Another potentially rebellious Frenchman from the old regime, or do you uplift someone who owes loyalty to you alone?

So yeah, French-Speaking Kings, of England and France, with a rule largely enforced by Anglo-French, English, and Gascon Lords. add in the likelihood of the Kings granting a Parliament in exchange for concessions or support from the nobility in a time of crisis, and I'd expect various smaller French Parliaments, a larger British Parliament, all of which can be summoned together for the biggest issues (i.e. War-Funding).

Add in the now strategic importance of conquering Scotland and Ireland to secure the British Isles and prevent someone attacking the most loyal part of the Empire, and you've probably got another two potential parliaments there.

I do love the idea of a ruling class speaking a mix of Gascon, English and French. Especially as it merges into one language.

TL;DR Initial mix of Parliament and Feudal lords, with the latter being replaced with loyal uplifted replacements, until such point that a Parliament needs to be provided. Either a roaming court with a variety of administrative centres, or a brand new administrative centre that is more defensible than Paris, and on the coast. Scotland and Ireland rapidly conquered and eventually forming their own Parliaments.
To Correct..it is French, English and Occitan.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
To Correct..it is French, English and Occitan.

The Gascon may be Occitan, but it doesn't mean the Anglo-French kings had the loyalty of the other Occitan groups. If that is the case, then fair play - I only knew of the Gascon loyalties.
 
The Gascon may be Occitan, but it doesn't mean the Anglo-French kings had the loyalty of the other Occitan groups. If that is the case, then fair play - I only knew of the Gascon loyalties.

The Catalans like the Plantagenets better than the Spanish or the Capetians, perhaps we could have Eleanor of Brittany or Berengaria of Castile married to the Aragonese Royal House, this would create an alliance between the Plantagenets and the Aragonese since they both have interests in southern france, they tried when it was too late to make, Eleanor, Duchess of Bar had been betrothed to the King of Aragon.
 
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GdwnsnHo

Banned
The Catalans like the Plantagenets better than the Spanish or the Capetians, perhaps we could have Eleanor of Brittany or Berengaria of Castile married to the Aragonese Royal House, this would create an alliance between the Plantagenets and the Aragonese.

That would lead to a very secure southern border, even if it would drag the Dual Monarchy into wars in Spain and Italy.

I may have just had a happy moment - England, Scotland, France, Aragon, Naples, and Sicily under a single ruler. Push any claims from the d'Aragon side of the family to take all of Spain, and there is a serious rival for the title of HRE. If the HRE still held N.Italy, and the (Triple, Quadruple, LetsStopCountingple) Monarchy holds Naples, then the Papal state is in an unenviable position.

I've always wondered if the Anglo-French would push for any Roman titles. even if it means marrying an Orthodox Greek rather than a good Catholic.
 
That would lead to a very secure southern border, even if it would drag the Dual Monarchy into wars in Spain and Italy.

I may have just had a happy moment - England, Scotland, France, Aragon, Naples, and Sicily under a single ruler. Push any claims from the d'Aragon side of the family to take all of Spain, and there is a serious rival for the title of HRE. If the HRE still held N.Italy, and the (Triple, Quadruple, LetsStopCountingple) Monarchy holds Naples, then the Papal state is in an unenviable position.

I've always wondered if the Anglo-French would push for any Roman titles. even if it means marrying an Orthodox Greek rather than a good Catholic.



I think also, John needs to have a son earlier, he has many heiresses that his potential sons could marry like Maria of Jerusalem, Beatrice, Countess of Burgundy and his OTL wife Isabella of Angouleme and if Frederick II is born female lets call him as Constance, she will be married to one of John's sons.


I think John should marry Ida of Boulogne or Alys of France, in Ida's case he could use her claim as the heiress of Stephen of Blois.
 
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