How would Adolf Hitler be impacted by a white victory?

(Let's say for the purposes of this scenario that Denikins attack to Moscow in 1919 succeeds and Bolsheviks are defeated soon after, Denikin becomes ruler of Russia as Kolchak does not desire to rule Russia he just wanted to stop communist take over and not be dictator. )
IOTL many of the people who funded and helped the early nazi party were white emrigees who fled the Bolsheviks. If you know anything about the whites you know they generally had extreme hatred of jews. It has been suggested by many that without the white emigres the early nazi party would not have gotten big (compared to similar niche parties) as Nazis would not have had important support from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufbau_Vereinigung group. As well as this, many important early Nazis such as Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richter possibly staying in Russia in case of whites winning.
It is also argued that white emigres gave Hitler many of his ideas on race, possibly helping him to focus on doctrine of Judeo Bolshevik conspiracy. Of course there would still be claims of this (from white government as well as many volkisch people in Germany.) Of course influences like the volkisch movement will still exist but the white emigres also had an impact on the whole volkisch movement. As well as this there would still be other sources of funding for the party. I also think propaganda produced by the white government and white ideologists would have an impact on them.
So how would Hitler and the early nazis be affected by a white victory? Would they still have the same ideology? Would they still have funding necessary to stand out against other similar groups or would Hitler charisma be enough?
 
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mial42

Gone Fishin'
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Probably no successful Nazis without the Bolsheviks. So Hitler remains a fairly obscure figure. My guess is Weimar still collapses if the Depression happens more or less on schedule, but into a more normal right-wing dictatorship (since the Communists will be weakened without foreign support and the SPD shot itself in the foot).
 
Probably no successful Nazis without the Bolsheviks. So Hitler remains a fairly obscure figure. My guess is Weimar still collapses if the Depression happens more or less on schedule, but into a more normal right-wing dictatorship (since the Communists will be weakened without foreign support and the SPD shot itself in the foot).
Explain your first sentence please?
 

mial42

Gone Fishin'
Kicked
Explain your first sentence please?
A good chunk of Nazi support came from the fact that only they seemed to be able to resist the Communists. If the Whites (most of whose factions were more "normal" right wing) win, then the Communists are much less of a threat. In most of Central/Eastern Europe, normal, semi-autocratic conservative regimes were able to suppress the local Communists in the interwar period. Odds are the same would happen in Germany in a scenario with much weaker Communism.
 
A good chunk of Nazi support came from the fact that only they seemed to be able to resist the Communists. If the Whites (most of whose factions were more "normal" right wing) win, then the Communists are much less of a threat. In most of Central/Eastern Europe, normal, semi-autocratic conservative regimes were able to suppress the local Communists in the interwar period. Odds are the same would happen in Germany in a scenario with much weaker Communism.
Well there still would have been Bolshevik revolution in Russia that nearly won and lead to a devestating war in order to stop them.
Probably no successful Nazis without the Bolsheviks. So Hitler remains a fairly obscure figure. My guess is Weimar still collapses if the Depression happens more or less on schedule, but into a more normal right-wing dictatorship (since the Communists will be weakened without foreign support and the SPD shot itself in the foot).
Do you think communists could benefit from not being seen as agents for a foreign state and not having effects of Bolshevik ideology on them
 
Well there still would have been Bolshevik revolution in Russia that nearly won and lead to a devestating war in order to stop them.
Communism can still be an ideological boogeyman without actually being a material threat.

Even if people are riled up and paranoid, there is no credible reason behind the paranoia to bolster it. The West has had multiple revolutionary scares for two centuries, they generally push politics to the right and make institutions more authoritarian, but that's not the same thing as actually have a socialist state within marching distance of your country.
 
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Without the existence of a Communist State in the East, a lot of Nazi "talking points" become null and void. I doubt relations between Germany and this alternate Russia would be cordial- perhaps even openly hostile- with White Russia wanting to avenge their disastrous performance in the First World War. However, for German politics- the Nazis (if they even form as we know them) cannot rant and rave about 'Judeo-Bolshevism', nor can they use this to justify Lebensraum. The idea of Eastern Expansion would be alive and well within right-wing circles of Germany, but it would not be egged on by Nazi paranoia and delusion.

If Hitler's entry into politics is not butterflied away, he would only achieve marginal success. The Nazis would never gain any real foothold within German politics, and would most likely be defunct by the 1930s. Perhaps a democratic Germany could endure, but what would most likely happen is some kind of continuation of Schleicher's rule, or a right-wing dictatorship/sham democracy run by Hindenburg and Von Papen.
 
I think that Hitler would still lead the Nazi party and try to raise the alarm about communism, but he wouldn’t get as far. After the Beer Hall Putsch, he might fall into obscurity. Granted I feel as if there’s a small chance of things going closely to otl as the depression would still happen and the whole stab in the back myth would still be prevalent and the defeat in the Great War would still make them hungry for revenge.

So if somehow Hitler got into power with a white Russia, he’d either try to ally with them or treat them like he did otl but it’d be more based on racial hatred. Granted if white Russia is more fascistic itself it might be seen more as an ally. Maybe they let Germany take western Poland and the Baltics
 
I agree with the consensus that Hitler most likely wouldn't have gotten into power had the Whites won the Russian Civil War, but let's just say for the sake of the scenario that the Nazis still got into power.
I don't think this changes too much.
See, the idea that the Slavs were a "lesser" race wasn't new in Germany at the time. The whole living space in the East idea goes way back to when Ostsiedlung occurred, and this was heavily exploited by the Nazis to press the territorial claims of Germany and to demonstrate supposed German superiority over non-Germanic peoples. Basically it's hard to create a situation where Lebensraum doesn't become a thing as long as the Nazis are around. Now it might be possible that the Germans would create a non-aggression pact with White Russia in the same way they did with the Soviet Union IOTL, and they might even be a temporary ally of theirs, but this would just be Hitler biding the time until he finds a decent opportunity to strike at them
 
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White Victory butterflies pretty much everything. Totally different ideological and geopolitical landscape.
Certainly. Exhibit A, Poland. Does the Denikin regime try to invade? If so, do they still lose (I expect they do). If not, how does the diplomacy go? Does Poland try to form an alliance with Berlin or Moscow against the other? Does the Sanation regime still arise? How does this affect French policy & the creation of the 'cordon sanitaire'? And many other questions.
 
Guys I am mainly asking about early nazi party if they would be the same without white emriges
Absolutely not.

The White Russians - and their infamous Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion forgery - were the key drivers of 20th century antisemitism.

The question you should be asking is what effect the example of successful White counter revolution carrying out anti-jewish genocide has on the massive and influential anti-semitic/anti-roma movement in Germany. Something which predates the Nazi party and will have a huge influence on German politics whether the Nazi party is its vehicle or not.

Hell, 'democratic' Weimar Germany was already doing most of the persecution (to the Roma) - commonly associated with the pre-war Nazis - long before the Nazis took power.

I would say that a 'successful' example in Russia would do far more to set Germany down an antisemitic genocidal path than white emigre's who joined the Nazi party did.
 
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Absolutely not.

The White Russians - and their infamous Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion forgery - were the key drivers of 20th century antisemitism.

The question you should be asking is what effect the example of successful White counter revolution carrying out anti-jewish genocide has on the massive and influential anti-semitic/anti-roma movement in Germany. Something which predates the Nazi party and will have a huge influence on German politics whether the Nazi party is its vehicle or not.

Hell, 'democratic' Weimar Germany was already doing most of the persecution (to the Roma) - commonly associated with the pre-war Nazis - long before the Nazis took power.

I would say that a 'successful' example in Russia would do far more to set Germany down an antisemitic genocidal path than white emigre's who joined the Nazi party did.
So anti semitic movements would be bolstered by white victory.. did Hitler becoming leader increase anti semitism outside Germany? (before he invades them)
And we are saying things would be entirely different in way more ways then that.
Yes I agree, but I am asking about something more specific
 
Probably no successful Nazis without the Bolsheviks. So Hitler remains a fairly obscure figure. My guess is Weimar still collapses if the Depression happens more or less on schedule, but into a more normal right-wing dictatorship (since the Communists will be weakened without foreign support and the SPD shot itself in the foot).
Who do you think would become German Franco?
 
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