How would a World War I which breaks out in 1917 look like?

Thomas1195

Banned
In the UK at the least you would have seen the Asquith government out by 1915, likely replaced by a Tory ministry, with violence in Ireland similar to what happened after the war IOTL.
Well, Bonar Law, unlike Balfour, would be a protectionist, Tariff Reform loudmouth, as IOTL he was calling for a wholesale tariff package including food. In other words, he might cause a far worse version of the 1906 election. The reason why Balfour achieved close result in 1910 was the fact that he softened the tariff reform policy. Besides, land reformers at that time was enjoying their peak in terms of influence and reputation.
 
I honestly think that relations between Britain and Russia would deteriorate in the intervening years and that this clear Russian aggression about kills British ambivalence to Russian foreign policy. Between that dealing with the fallout of whatever was happening in Ireland probably means a neutral Britain.

There probably isn't even a World War, just a 'everyone versus Russia' free-for-all. With firm British neutrality the French might get cold feet and opt to sit this one out.

The Russians will have a much reformed army and be facing off against a mch reduced Austria... but they'll also be dealing with a Germany fighting on a single front that has access to world markets and a Turkey that's much improved (army reform and the Baghdad Railway will make the Ottomans much more formidable).
 
Any thoughts on this?
Quite some ...
Here is the scenario--let's say that Franz Ferdinand survives that 1914 assassination attempt on him at Sarajevo and thus World War I doesn't break out in 1914. ...
There were quite some other powder kegs/hot spots, that could have triggered WW earlier.
It would require a DAMN AWFULL LOT of diplomatic novelty and ... soundness of (too ?) many parts to avoid WW until 1917. ... IMHO.
Rather, World War I breaks out in 1917 in this TL after Franz Ferdinand becomes Emperor and fails to renew the Ausgleich (due to Hungarian resistance and hostility towards Franz Ferdinand). As a result of the Austro-Hungarian civil war, ...
Don't see this happen.
There would be some/a lot of renegotiating of the Ausgleich and FFs plans for reforming the structure of A-H. In this he would (very likly) have a lot of support of all of the nationalities of A-H groups, looking for some more autonomy - which he would at least on paper give. They were much more influential, than the groups searching outright independence from the monarchy.
Hungary, even if Tisza led, would after such negotiation comply. Too big are the advantages to stay with the rest of the empire as a cow to milk. Too dire the outlooks of a chance to stand up against a Cisleithania most likely also supported by Germany - not ot forget all the "enemies within" of Hungary, which was a multinational contruct in itself.



You quite "handwave" the time from 1914 to 1917.
Without the war at "the last possible occasion" - how would Germany develop ? ... militarily as well as socio-economical ? ... domestically as well as on the global scale ? It seems to me you consider Germany "just" stays were it was in 1914.

With the russians emerging more&more as THE BIG military power ... how will Britain react ? ... in its tradition of "keeping the balance" ? ... which would with the Franco-Russian alliance after the completion of the russian rearmaent program become a HUGE overweight on the anti-CP faction.
Britain would definitely join against the Russians in this scenario, ...
Therefore I don't see this as a given at all ... more the opposite of at least freindly neutrality towards Germany in the beginning.
 
Well, in this scenario, I don't think France involves itself because as previously mentioned, the Entente is defensive; ...
... another believer in entente-propaganda.
At the beginning - yes it was thought of as a defense against a seemingly overmighty german military. However, for all the staff-talks after 1900 between France and Ruddia it IMO clearly developed into a very aggressive alliance, only waiting for the "right moment" to struck against Germany for reatliation.

Even in this scenarion, if Germany makes only the slightest advance towards support against Russia : France it in.
 

TheSpectacledCloth

Gone Fishin'
Here is the scenario--let's say that Franz Ferdinand survives that 1914 assassination attempt on him at Sarajevo and thus World War I doesn't break out in 1914. Rather, World War I breaks out in 1917 in this TL after Franz Ferdinand becomes Emperor and fails to renew the Ausgleich (due to Hungarian resistance and hostility towards Franz Ferdinand). As a result of the Austro-Hungarian civil war, Russia sees a golden opportunity to break up Austria-Hungary (especially considering that its own Great Military Program is on the verge of completion at this point in time) and comes up with some excuse (if necessary, by faking evidence)--such as Hungary's treatment of its Ruthenian minority--to go to war with Austria-Hungary in this TL.

Basically, this TL's World War I will likely involve France (as a Russian ally), Italy (as a country that also wants to break-up Austria-Hungary), Russia, Serbia (as a Russian ally), Montenegro (as a Russian ally), and Romania (as a country that also wants to break-up Austria-Hungary) on one side and Germany and Austria on the other side. (Hungary would presumably be in the position of fighting Germany and Austria but not allied with anyone else; after all, I doubt that Russia would ally with the anti-Slav Hungarians in place of allying with Serbia and Romania.) Meanwhile, Britain, the U.S., and the Ottoman Empire would presumably be neutral in this TL's WWI. Also, I am presuming that, due to the approaching completion of the Russian Great Military Program, the Schlieffen Plan would already be approaching its expiration date and thus wouldn't be used in this TL's WWI.

Anyway, how exactly would this TL's WWI have turned out?

Any thoughts on this?
Well, while this scenario is rather plausible, there are more simple ways to start World War I in 1917. Let's say that after Franz Joseph dies, Franz Ferdinand takes his place and is able to introduce 'trialism' into Austria-Hungary. Croatia becomes an kingdom of equal worth to Austria and Hungary. Thus tensions are soothed in the Balkan region and the empire begins to under reform. Austria would still possess South Tyrol and and the Croatian kingdom would possess Istria and the Dalmatian coast, thus making making way for a possible combatant: Italy. With war averted in 1914, Italy would likely just distance itself further from the Triple Alliance. It had already conquered Libya and Mediterranean islands from the Ottoman Empire and COULD have conquered Ethiopia between 1914 and 1917 (emphasis on 'could'). Italy would likely seek to develop a strategy of invading Austria-Hungary in order to regain land it had claims on. And with creation of the Croatian kingdom, it would likely upset the Italians even further. Tensions would likely rise between the new empires and all it would take is one event to spark a war. Now, with Ferdinand's idea of trialism put into place, I'm not to sure that Serbia will ultimately act so hostile towards Austria. With an Slavic kingdom established on equal grounds to Austria, I believe that Serbia would ease it's antagonism towards it's old nemesis. The same can not be said for Russia. If Italy went to war with Austria-Hungary-Croatia, the Russian Empire would likely mobilize to fight alongside Italy. That would tempt the Germans to declare on Russia, and France to declare on Germany. The United Kingdom's entry depends on if Germany violates Belgium's neutrality, which is uncertain given the time for the German Empire to figure new strategies. The Ottoman Empire would likely stay neutral to rebuild itself and sort out ethnic problems in its Middle Eastern territories, though it could have a skirmish with Bulgaria over control of Thrace. Speaking of Bulgaria, it would likely be neutral in the new World War I as well without an hostile Serbia, though it probably will seek to regain it's land in small and separate conflicts. Now, the differences in 1917 would be significant. The Austrian army would probably be the same as OTL, expect slightly better equipped and far more morale (due to Ferdinand's reforms of sovereignty to Croatia). The Italian army would probably be much more nationalistic and determined to gain its disputed land and defeating Austria. France would likely have more time to build more defenses in preparation for a German attack (probably rendering the Schlieffen Plan useless anyway) but it would still suffer from a low population and would have to rely on conscripting French colonial troops to expand it's overall army. Germany's industry would get even stronger and its army would expand to substantial numbers, easily outclassing France in size. It'll also likely have the most tanks ready for combat, being the modern country in the war. But no country would advance as much as Russia. Rapid industrial growth would sufficiently modernize the Russian army and give essential repair to it's poor infrastructure. It would still probably be mainly an agricultural empire, but it would be an significant improvement from 1914. It would possess the biggest army of the war, which would significantly benefit from more years of industrial growth. In the set of conflict, all Italian divisions would be sent on the Austrian front and set on advancing into the Balkans as much as possible. Austria would have a really difficult time with Italy, but it would be CRUSHED by Russia. However, with the majority of German troops being sent to the Eastern Front, the odds are balanced with Russian troops struggling with advanced technology from Germany. France wouldn't likely accomplish much except skirmishes on the Franco-German border and conquests of Germany's African colonies. Britain and America would likely shake their heads in annoyance and seek to diplomatically end the conflict as much as possible. Japan would just silently sit in the background and seek to begin its imperial expansion into China within several years. France and Austria are the two countries least likely to make the most significant gains in the war. Those honors would belong to Germany, Russia and Italy (especially the two former). And it's not too certain who would come out on top. Will Germany expand into Russia and establish puppet states to cripple Russia's potential? Will France and Russia be humiliated for the last time and collapse into communist revolutions? Will Italy be put into submission by Austria and make way for Mussolini or will it join Russia and France's revolution? Or will with Italy expand and finally conquer South Tyrol, Istria and the Dalmatian Coast? Will Russia annex Galicia and divide with Italy to turn Austria-Hungary-Croatia into puppets for their benefit? Will France and Russia bring the ultimate humiliation to Germany and set the stage for the Nazis to rise? Who knows? The possibilities are endless.
 
@ArtisticCritic TBH : I like your scenario. IMO a much better way to "trigger" an alternate WW I.
Though I don't really see an "appeasement" between Serbia and A-H-C (ITTL), as the the new "C", Croatian Kingdom, would deny Serbia, what its looking for. Also I don't see Russia letting pan-slavism go, as it also served their other important objective in the reagion : access and control of the straits (Bosporus and Dardanells).
There could be rather an additional "alliance" messing up diplomacy even more compared to IOTL : between Italy, Serbia and Russia, dividing the Balkan and A-H-C under the three as "zones of influence", with Serbia probably being the most minor part of it, more or less an "agent" of russian interests.
Italy gets Croatian, Tyrol, dalmatian coast, Albania, Greece (without "macedonian" parts but all/most of the agean isles), perhaps also a dismanteled Hungary.
Russia gets Galicia, Slovakia, Ruthenia, maybe also Czechia with Romania and Bulgary as their puppets, with Romania propped up with large parts of Hungary, Bulgaria with the macedonian parts of Greece (access to the Mediterrainian. Oh, and ofc Constantinople and the Dardanells with land strips around as a Russia-controlled puppet "New Byzanthium", nominally neutral-independant.
Serbia gets Bosia-Herzegowina, the Banat, maybe some parts of Albania and Montenegro.
France in a way would bound to it by the Franco-Russian alliance.

Germany, due to unavailability of anyone else, would most likly stick with the alliance with A-H-C. Also, as the "Schlieffen"-concept becomes even more unrealistic will gear up its military/army expenditures and develop another "concept", which would most likely rely heavily on defense ( propping up fortresses/border fortifications) in the west as well as in the east.

To avoid a "counter-Schlieffen" aka France marching through Belgium it would possibly try to "enforce" the belgian guarantee by a set of sturdier treaties, clearly threatening any offender of Belgium with military as well as economic sanctions. And in that respect will seek closer ties with Britain.

About a possible detention between Germany and Britain :
It should be kept in mind, that 1n 1913 GB and Germany signed an agreement of dividing the portuguise colonies between them. And found an agreement about the Bagdad-railway also in summer 1914 (can't remember the exact date right now). Their relations WERE improving alteady in 1914 with Germany having more or less accepted the "loosing" of the naval arms race.
 
Here is the scenario--let's say that Franz Ferdinand survives that 1914 assassination attempt on him at Sarajevo and thus World War I doesn't break out in 1914. Rather, World War I breaks out in 1917 in this TL after Franz Ferdinand becomes Emperor and fails to renew the Ausgleich (due to Hungarian resistance and hostility towards Franz Ferdinand). As a result of the Austro-Hungarian civil war, Russia sees a golden opportunity to break up Austria-Hungary (especially considering that its own Great Military Program is on the verge of completion at this point in time) and comes up with some excuse (if necessary, by faking evidence)--such as Hungary's treatment of its Ruthenian minority--to go to war with Austria-Hungary in this TL.

Basically, this TL's World War I will likely involve France (as a Russian ally), Italy (as a country that also wants to break-up Austria-Hungary), Russia, Serbia (as a Russian ally), Montenegro (as a Russian ally), and Romania (as a country that also wants to break-up Austria-Hungary) on one side and Germany and Austria on the other side. (Hungary would presumably be in the position of fighting Germany and Austria but not allied with anyone else; after all, I doubt that Russia would ally with the anti-Slav Hungarians in place of allying with Serbia and Romania.) Meanwhile, Britain, the U.S., and the Ottoman Empire would presumably be neutral in this TL's WWI. Also, I am presuming that, due to the approaching completion of the Russian Great Military Program, the Schlieffen Plan would already be approaching its expiration date and thus wouldn't be used in this TL's WWI.

Anyway, how exactly would this TL's WWI have turned out?

Any thoughts on this?

Hell yeah, my favorite POD and timeline, though I envisioned a CP victory. :p

Also, Yes, Russia could eventually threaten British possessions in Asia. However, the best move for Britain might be perceived to stay out of this TL's WWI and to prepare for that contingency if it ever comes (as opposed to putting its possessions in Asia in danger right now by sending its boys to die on Germany's behalf!).

I agree with you that Britain would not be so eager to join the war in this scenario but they might support the CP with loans and trading. This, however, would not prevent Japan to join the war after Germany sent a "Zimmerman Telegram" of sort to request Japanese cooperation to strangle Russia. The US would stay neutral as well.

Good points!

Thus, what about having Russia step in on Hungary's behalf only to betray Hungary later on if necessary? After all, if Russia intervenes on Hungary's behalf, wins the war, and then decides to allow its allies Serbia (which probably still wants Vojvodina even if not a main priority) and Romania conquer some Hungarian territory for themselves, what exactly is either Hungary or anyone else going to be able to do about this?

Also, though, what about this--allow Austria to fully crush Hungary and to weaken itself in the process and only then come up with some excuse to go to war with Austria? Indeed, that would allow Russia to support Serbian and Romanian territorial claims in both Austria and Hungary.

I think your former scenario was more likely to happen since Russia would definitely support the claims of their Slavic allies over the Magyars. Of course, these territories would had been ceded as Hungarian "rewards" for Serbia and Romania in a nasty treaty, if the Entente won, that is.
 

BooNZ

Banned
Russia was undergoing a big military buildup, of both their army and their navy, underwritten by French loans, and if they can avoid revolution they would be Europe's leading military power by 1916. Germany couldn't keep up, which played a big part in the July crisis, the German generals were telling the government (accurately) "if you are going to have a war with Russia, you have to have it now." However, for balance of power reasons this would mean the UK swinging from the Franco-Russian side to the German-Austrian side, if the civilians in the German government had kept their nerve in 1914.

By 1914 the buildup of the Russian armies had already been substantially completed, with increasing proportions of the Russian military budget being dedicated to naval matters. The improvements planned for the Russian armies was focused on heavy artillery and increasing the numbers of their standing army. On paper the Russian army was a monster, but its performance in 1914 illustrated this power was substantially an illusion. The Russians are not going to be able to rectify the inherent shortfalls in their military in 2-3 years - especially when those were not readily apparent in 1914. I do not believe the German generals had any fear of the Russian Armies, rather they feared increased Russian mobilization speeds would result in a two front war, and therefore long war.

In contrast, the Germans had only recently started to re-focus on its armies. It's economy and industry was far larger than Russia and in 1914 it spent less on military matters, so had scope to increase spending. Germany was well placed to match any further increases in the Russian military numbers - despite all the talk about Russian manpower, I understand the urban population of Germany was greater than the Russian Empire - those populations produce the educated folks that serve as NCOs and hold technical positions within Armies.

A-H was also scheduled to upgrade its obsolete artillery in 1915/16. Of all the great powers A-H had proportionately the smallest army and the proportionately lowest military budget in 1914. In 1914 A-H was also the fastest growing economy in Europe, so it conceivably could have been far stronger in 1917 if it escaped the gravity of its own inertia.
 

Faeelin

Banned
I honestly think that relations between Britain and Russia would deteriorate in the intervening years and that this clear Russian aggression about kills British ambivalence to Russian foreign policy. Between that dealing with the fallout of whatever was happening in Ireland probably means a neutral Britain.

Why would relations with Russia deteroriate?
 

Faeelin

Banned
By 1914 the buildup of the Russian armies had already been substantially completed, with increasing proportions of the Russian military budget being dedicated to naval matters. The improvements planned for the Russian armies was focused on heavy artillery and increasing the numbers of their standing army. On paper the Russian army was a monster, but its performance in 1914 illustrated this power was substantially an illusion. The Russians are not going to be able to rectify the inherent shortfalls in their military in 2-3 years - especially when those were not readily apparent in 1914.

I don't know. More heavy artillery for Russia, given the way it trashed the Austrians, seems problematic.

To put it another way, Russia modernizes. Germany, we'll say, modernizes.

Austria? "I'm a great power whee!"
 
the question I have is this: Does the Russian Revolution happen, or due to the fact that WW1 comes later, does it happen in an entirely different way? Because that's something to take into consideration.
 
Why would relations with Russia deteroriate?

Three years of growth and expansion in Russia probably brings the latent Russophobia back to life, the naval race with Germany was pretty much toast by about 1912 and the fact that in the OP Russia has just launched an offensive war.
 

BooNZ

Banned
Italy. With war averted in 1914, Italy would likely just distance itself further from the Triple Alliance. It had already conquered Libya and Mediterranean islands from the Ottoman Empire and COULD have conquered Ethiopia between 1914 and 1917 (emphasis on 'could'). Italy would likely seek to develop a strategy of invading Austria-Hungary in order to regain land it had claims on.
The Italian naval power saved the Italian army from being embarrassed by the Ottomans and Italy was only able to limp to the starting line in 1915 under duress - my money would be firmly on the Ethiopians - if any bookie would take my bet. In respect of developing a strategy to successfully invade A-H, the Italians would have to move mountains - literally.

And with creation of the Croatian kingdom, it would likely upset the Italians even further. Tensions would likely rise between the new empires and all it would take is one event to spark a war. Now, with Ferdinand's idea of trialism put into place, I'm not to sure that Serbia will ultimately act so hostile towards Austria. With an Slavic kingdom established on equal grounds to Austria, I believe that Serbia would ease it's antagonism towards it's old nemesis.
OTL the Serbians were very keen to liberate Albania from the Albanians and Macedonia from the Macedonians, so liberating Bosnia Herzegovina from the Croats would not be much of a stretch.

The same can not be said for Russia. If Italy went to war with Austria-Hungary-Croatia, the Russian Empire would likely mobilize to fight alongside Italy. That would tempt the Germans to declare on Russia, and France to declare on Germany.
In the first instance, I doubt Italy had the chops to start a war it had no chance of winning. In the second instance, Imperial Russia may be keen for war, but would in all likelihood hold out for a casus belli that would not result in Russia fighting Germany and A-H alone.

The United Kingdom's entry depends on if Germany violates Belgium's neutrality, which is uncertain given the time for the German Empire to figure new strategies.
A larger Russian standing army with faster mobilization times means the Belgium option is off the table.

Germany's industry would get even stronger and its army would expand to substantial numbers, easily outclassing France in size. It'll also likely have the most tanks ready for combat, being the modern country in the war.
Tanks? WTF?

But no country would advance as much as Russia. Rapid industrial growth would sufficiently modernize the Russian army and give essential repair to it's poor infrastructure. It would still probably be mainly an agricultural empire, but it would be an significant improvement from 1914. It would possess the biggest army of the war, which would significantly benefit from more years of industrial growth.
In OTL 1914 Russia had enjoyed impressive industrial growth for over 25 years, it had been spending a disproportionate amount of its budget on military matters in the 5-6 years prior to 1914 and had the largest army in the world. OTL the Russian armies still got routinely monstered by the Germans and 2-3 years of focusing on naval growth is unlikely to change that.

In the set of conflict, all Italian divisions would be sent on the Austrian front and set on advancing into the Balkans as much as possible. Austria would have a really difficult time with Italy, but it would be CRUSHED by Russia. However, with the majority of German troops being sent to the Eastern Front, the odds are balanced with Russian troops struggling with advanced technology from Germany.
A-H enjoys a qualitative advantage over the Italians and describing the A-H position as defensible is a gross understatement. The A-H forces may initially struggle against the Russians, until the Germans start to cull their numbers.
 

Deleted member 94680

OTL the Serbians were very keen to liberate Albania from the Albanians and Macedonia from the Macedonians, so liberating Bosnia Herzegovina from the Croats would not be much of a stretch.

Sorry to bump this thread but I just had to say that's brilliant - genuinely laughed out loud!


While I'm here:

  • Trialism in A-H wouldn't lead to detente with Serbia.
  • The Ausgleich wasn't up for compromise or renegotiation, simply the financial terms of budget allocations
  • As BooNZ has said where do the Germans get tanks from in the three years prior to alt-WWI? It was trench warfare that birthed the tank
  • If France and Russia have time to modernise and re-equip, so does A-H. They either all improve, or (more likely, IMO) they all carry on as usual until War breaks out.
  • You need more than "A-H stabilises" for Italy to launch a War. OTL they barely lurched in when A-H was getting battered by the Russians and with the Anglo-French promises of territory. Before that, they showed no real interest in aggressively taking territory from A-H.
 
I think the war would be fought pretty much along the same lines as the first world war, because many of the innovations brought upon by the first world war are delayed by about 4 years.
 
Technology and military readiness are things to consider, as well as the politics. Without a war in 1914, aircraft won't be as good as in OTL 1917, but there will still be significant advances. The Russian 4 engine airliner should be in service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_Ilya_Muromets and submarines will be more advanced than in 1914, with more of the parafin and gasoline powered boats replaced by newer boats.

The Dreadnought race is interesting--will it have continued, or will some sort of slowdown have come about. The Ottoman Empire will have its two dreadnoughts, Russia will have more, and the USA will have its latest generation.
 
The Dreadnought race is interesting--will it have continued, or will some sort of slowdown have come about. The Ottoman Empire will have its two dreadnoughts, Russia will have more, and the USA will have its latest generation.

The Dreadnought race was already over. Britain had won in 1912.
 
Technology and military readiness are things to consider, as well as the politics. Without a war in 1914, aircraft won't be as good as in OTL 1917, but there will still be significant advances. The Russian 4 engine airliner should be in service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_Ilya_Muromets and submarines will be more advanced than in 1914, with more of the parafin and gasoline powered boats replaced by newer boats.

The Dreadnought race is interesting--will it have continued, or will some sort of slowdown have come about. The Ottoman Empire will have its two dreadnoughts, Russia will have more, and the USA will have its latest generation.

Russia will have a scary military by 1917. Navy, Army and Air Force. With Germany checked I really don't think the three emperors will be motivated to change their own long established Congress of Vienna boundaries (or to support non status quo politics in each others monarchies. Although they will be more than glad to take advantage of weaknesses to secure advantages other places.
 
The Dreadnought race was already over. Britain had won in 1912.

In terms of absolute numbers, Britain had won, and Germany had definitely lost. However, the USA was building some fine ships, and the only ones really designed for longer ranged engagements. The United States is now clearly a major player at sea.
 
Britain probably would have adopted the Pattern 1913 Enfield to replace the SMLE, as really the only thing stopping it in OTL was the outbreak of the war in 1914.
 
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