How Would A Surviving Byzantine Empire Impact The Modern World

Why would a lasting Byzantine empire establish colonies in the Americas? They have quite the opposite incentive, the same as the Italian states: they get rich off the trade to the East. Sure, they might get gifted a few small Caribbean islands like France did with Malta, but that's what they are.

I think if you want a Byzantine state without a wank, you would need the Mongols to focus entirely on the Middle East, not only destroying Arab civilization but stunting the new Turkish one.

Also, who said it would need to be based in Rome? With the Kievan Rus intact, the two merge into something like the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, retaining the heritage of Rome and eventually moving to the Third Rome, Moscow.
 
Why would a lasting Byzantine empire establish colonies in the Americas? They have quite the opposite incentive, the same as the Italian states: they get rich off the trade to the East. Sure, they might get gifted a few small Caribbean islands like France did with Malta, but that's what they are.

I think if you want a Byzantine state without a wank, you would need the Mongols to focus entirely on the Middle East, not only destroying Arab civilization but stunting the new Turkish one.

Also, who said it would need to be based in Rome? With the Kievan Rus intact, the two merge into something like the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, retaining the heritage of Rome and eventually moving to the Third Rome, Moscow.

No one said Byzantium would have colonies in the Americas. That's nonsensical.

Why on earth would the Romans and Russians unite? More importantly, how? Roman succession worked in a way that a personal union was impossible.

The Byzantine Empire was more than powerful enough on its own. You don't even need to do much to leave Rome intact: Just avoid the disasters they suffered in the early 13th century, mainly 1204.
 
It all depends on the PoD. Assuming a classic No Manzikert, the Romans will be in control of all of Anatolia, much of the Balkans, Armenia and Syria, even Southern Italy....

Such a power will be a powerful nation even unto modern times, and will be the superpower of the med up until the age of industrialization.

However, a rump Byzantine Empire, only controlling parts of Anatolia along with Thrace and Greece, will still be very rich, and have a huge impact on the med world, well beyond wine making.:D

The Byz expanded and contracted throughout its pre 1204 history, much like all other countries with long histories. Even with a classic Manzikert victory I doubt the Byz would hold the same territory 500 years later in the early modern era, or 700 years later at the start of the Industrial Revolution.

I don't doubt the Byz would exert a huge impact on the Med world, their reach into Central Asia would be unsurpassed, but the modern era basically was all about the Med being eclipsed by the Atlantic world.
 
The Byz expanded and contracted throughout its pre 1204 history, much like all other countries with long histories. Even with a classic Manzikert victory I doubt the Byz would hold the same territory 500 years later in the early modern era, or 700 years later at the start of the Industrial Revolution.

I don't doubt the Byz would exert a huge impact on the Med world, their reach into Central Asia would be unsurpassed, but the modern era basically was all about the Med being eclipsed by the Atlantic world.

Anatolia is the Imperial heartland of the Empire. Any TL involving them surviving requires that they keep it. Likewise, the borders of the Empire under Basil are the borders that make sense for Rome; ultimately, this is where their sphere of influence has lain since the Arab Conquests and it will remain their focus indefinitely.

There are many reasons for this, both in military and economic power. For example, Thrace must be protected, therefore it is important to keep Bulgaria subjugated. The whole idea of a natural border on the Danube was something emperors from Constantine to Manuel aimed for, and this wasn't going to go away with time. A modern, stable Empire will try to keep borders similar to those under Basil.

Western Europe is by no means guaranteed to dominate world affairs. With a PoD at Manzikert, much of the Mongol Conquests are butterflied away. Although Proto-Mongols may very well arise, there is no guaranteeing they will do what OTL's Mongols did. What this ultimately leads to is a stronger Arab world, and a stronger Mediteranean one as well. In this situation, why would Western Europe surpass the Med?
 
As I posted in the other thread a surviving byzantium depends on which period you are talking about. If it retains 11th century borders than it is in a good position to industrialize and due too its solid focus on manufacturing coupled with high literacy, high wages, and a powerful financial and mercantile sector, and it will, if it can retain large revenues procure the capital and funds necessary to build railroads though it may have to import resources. you could see it compete with countries such as France and Britain and Spain(while Spain holds Netherlands or at least southern netherlands).

As for colonies it will focus on northern and eastern africa.
By 1700 Basil's empire should have advanced enough provided it continues that economic growth to successfully take levant and Egypt. Essentially egypt is key.

If byzantium controls Egypt than it gains ownership over all that sweet cotton. Not to mention it will have the funds and resources and necessity to build suez canal to tap into the indian ocean trade.


Its only issue is lack of coal and possibly low agricultural productivity given otl that region had low produtivityin agriculture.

FOr people comparing it to Ottomans, not good comparison
1)Ottomans were an agriculture based civ, The Byzantines were a civ that functioned on trade and manufacturing. Both key to industrialization
2) High literacy in 11th century Byzantium of up to 30%. Not sure Ottoman ltiercy was that high and im certain if literacy was 30% for byzantines in 1000 that number would be much higher by 1700-1800.
3) High wages in 11th century, if higher wages retained by industrial era.
4) Tariffs and govt role in regulating trade. OTL Ottomans failed to adopt tarriffs when it came to manufacturing as did the Brits and later French which was why Ottoman merchants couldn't compete effectively with indian silk and cotton in the 18th century but Britain and France did.

As for Italian merchants: Much larger than Venice and even during Venices height byzantines in 11h century ahd higher gdp per capita and literacy rates.

edit: FOr above reasons neccisity ofr new world resources not that important. ALready had access to lots of cotton and silk, especially if the byzantines sieze Egypt and move into eastern Africa.
 
Biden&Ceaser'12;10013508 In this situation said:
I can only think of one valid reason, easy access to Coal and therefore easier industrialisation. Even if the Mediterranean Area remains the focus of intellectual progress, it is probably the unruly northwest that will actually do something with it in practical terms. However just because that is what happened OTL doesn't mean it will do here, in these circumstances.
 
I can only think of one valid reason, easy access to Coal and therefore easier industrialisation. Even if the Mediterranean Area remains the focus of intellectual progress, it is probably the unruly northwest that will actually do something with it in practical terms. However just because that is what happened OTL doesn't mean it will here.

Nothing is stopping the med from industrializing. There's enough coal in the Balkans to sustain industrialization, even if they're not the first to do so.

I would agree that 9/10 times, Northern Europe industrializes before Southern Europe. But IOTL, Western Europe industrialized before North America, yet the latter still was very successful.
 
But North America is (ok was:))culturally Western European. Look at the time it took China to industrialise successfully and it certainly had the resources and intellectual potential to do so much earlier. A surviving Byzantium could possibly be as bound by precedent and tradition and so make industrialisation harder to implement even if North Western Europe was busily showing the potential of this course of action. However when it did get its act together then it WOULD dominate.

EDIT: this really belongs in the other thread about a similar topic.
 
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But North America is (ok was:))culturally Western European. Look at the time it took China to industrialise successfully and it certainly had the resources and intellectual potential to do so much earlier. A surviving Byzantium could possibly be as bound by precedent and tradition and so make industrialisation harder to implement even if North Western Europe was busily showing the potential of this course of action. However when it did get its act together then it WOULD dominate.

Of course, there's no doubting they could stagnate and fall behind the rest of the world. The key word here is could. It all depends on the circumstances.
 
But North America is (ok was:))culturally Western European. Look at the time it took China to industrialise successfully and it certainly had the resources and intellectual potential to do so much earlier. A surviving Byzantium could possibly be as bound by precedent and tradition and so make industrialization harder to implement even if North Western Europe was busily showing the potential of this course of action. However when it did get its act together then it WOULD dominate.
Oh boy like with Ottomans china cant be compared to Byzantium. china had reosurces but it lacked in urbanization, tarriffs, and most importantly neccessity to focus on international trade, necessity and competition are what set Byzantium apart from china not to mention had higher wages and would continue to have high wages. Plus tech diffusion, interaction with europe and necessity to compete would give it access to western europea innovations. course if this is post Manuel Komnenos(At the latest) byzantium than the situation is completely diferent and I can see byzantium becoming a sick man of europe like Ottomans. Even post Basil II the above situation can happen.
 
The Crusaders need to win the Battle of Nicopolis or no Hussites to allow Sigsmund to take the fight into the Balkans
 
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