How would a surviving Byzantine Empire develop?

But real peoples don't hang in forever; OTL was pretty Space Bat and only possible because Istanbul was the perfect place. And it got outmoded in perfection by the cannon, how it fell. After all, whom holds Egypt and China today are hardly the same people as started. Each's changed ownership tons,

And they weren't worth saving ANYMORE, because they'd grown the worst imaginable case of corrupt and stifling over the centuries, with the longest rulebook imaginable. IMHO Mohammmed was a natural reaction to that stifling. It would've been somebody else without Mohammed.

And IMHO the Turkish Republic's great succession. Democracy's better, just as it was healthier for the Roman REPUBLIC while it lasted.

Not really sure what this post is saying. What's Muhammad got to do with anything? What's the Turkish Republic got to do with it?
 
What do you mean by that? Their tax system was only second to China up until the Fourth Crusade. They had an extremely robust economy, were the most urbanized state in Europe and had a tradition of reform and adaption. That's a massive edge over pretty much all their neighbors up until something like the Renaissance comes in.

Their Theme system was outdated was mainly what I meant.

I don't see why they're doomed to fall to some invading nomadic group. That's only a threat up until gunpowder weapons come in, and if you don't get something like the lead up to the Fourth Crusade and subsequent partition this would remain the most powerful state in Europe that has the necessary manpower to deal with invasions.

They had the Persians, Arab, Mongols, Turks, and on and on.



You mean carved up by Western powers? Why would that happen? And why just Greece and Western Anatolia? :confused:

Because thats the most geographically similar, and the area they managed to control after say, the Seljuk in invasion and its the area in Anatolia not owned by Rum.


Even with Basil's borders thats an economy that would easily be in the top 20 worldwide.

If it controlled Greece and western Anatolia, it wouldn't be able to compete with the US, Britain, Russia, China. Not that they would exist like in OTL if ERE survived, but whoever took their place still. Eastern Europe is like it is for a reasons, like how mountainous Greece is and do on.
 

Deleted member 67076

Their Theme system was outdated was mainly what I meant.
The Themes weren't the only source of troops.
They had the Persians, Arab, Mongols, Turks, and on and on.
So? All states have rivals and enemies that they must frequently fight, what makes Romania so special that it will eventually collapse under the strain of these periodic invaders?

Besides, once gunpowder comes the age of the Nomad is over, which means any marauding horde is just not going to be able to launch a random invasion and push forth to the Capital, much less hold all that territory.

Because thats the most geographically similar, and the area they managed to control after say, the Seljuk in invasion and its the area in Anatolia not owned by Rum.
We're assuming either No Manzikert or a Comnenid Restoration according to the OP. In either case, incursions into Anatolia aren't a given after the reconquest of Anatolia (they'd be unlikely to be honest) and the border is going to be at very mountainous Armenia and Kurdistan.

If it controlled Greece and western Anatolia, it wouldn't be able to compete with the US, Britain, Russia, China. Not that they would exist like in OTL if ERE survived, but whoever took their place still. Eastern Europe is like it is for a reasons, like how mountainous Greece is and so on.
I highly doubt all but the most rump ERE's that has been purposefully dismembered will have those borders. At the most likely you'll see something like the Byzantine border in 800 AD if it doesn't have the Balkans, Italy and the Levant.
 
course Byzantium with a strong Komnenian state could develop ala its western European counterparts hell I could even see it being a power by 19th century provided it controls Anatolia and the balkans be of equal to Britain.

The reason is simple even in Manuel's reign Byzantine gdp per capita was around 1100 international dollars. It also had a high literacy rate of over 30%. These numbers would not be surpassed by any European nations till 1700s by which point Britain achieves 40% literacy and once industrialization takes off surpasses byzantine gdp per capita figure. It takes much longer for France to beat those numbers and even longer in the case of Ottomans or Russians or even Austria-Hungary. That coupled with its trading and manufacturing based economy and even some coal fields in northern anatolia+deforestation, it will be in a very good position to industrialize since the majority of requirements are already met.

The key difference beetween the Ottoman state and a byzantium that replaces it is that the Ottomans were a state based on agriculture. They were not a manufacturing based empire. Byzantium was since its dominance over Manufacturing in the med and its trade powers were vital to its survival as a nation. At the same time wages in ottoman lands were low but Byzantine workers usually were paid high wages due toe enjoying higher standard of living at least in peaceful times then their western european counterparts. Due to this key difference I see the byzantine state developing gunpowder roughly the same time as other european states and in fact be one of the premier european powers if we get a successful Komnenian restoration. The big issues it will face however are the landholding dynatoi. Though europe also had feudalism so perhaps Byzantium can develop into a more centralized state.

As for its threats. Well the big one would be perhaps Austria(if like otl they become HRE), the Italian city states, especially Venice though im certain by 1800s due to industrialization and high agricultural productivity byzantium will essentially win out. Also Spain in the med. I could see it allying with France like otl Ottomans and Italy could be the main battleground in any big conflicts it takes part in. perhaps Russia would be an ally if it does form since both are Orthodox and share many ties.

Thus by 1900 I expect Byzantium to be one of the great powers. In terms of economic and manufacturing potential somewhere between France and Britain/Germany. though in terms of standing armies it would be more on pairity with otl France.

As for population otl the turks in anatolia were still very nomadic even by the late 1800s I beleive and due to lack of agricultural productivity in land ottoman populations were low. The Romans I doubt would face similar issues and in otl before Turkish conquest Anatolia was heavily populated. Not to mention as a european nation technological diffusons from Netherlands would also reach byzantium.

All this assumes that a stronger byzantium retains its reliance on trade and manuacturing.
 
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