How would a Russian ruled China look like?

Before starting, let me clarify two things: I'm not S.M. Stirling, and I know that it is impossible for Russia to integrate any han majority area of China, it doesn't matter how far away we put the PoD. Second, I'm not praising russian imperialism or anything like that.

Here is the scenario: The Russian Empire defeats the Qing Dynasty on a alternate war in the 1800s, taking over Manchuria and Xinjiang. For some unspeciefied reason, the empire is able to survive and to defeat both the japanese innfluence in asia and also to take over Korea. After that the Russian empire attacks China again, be a rump Qing or a Republic, or a new dynasty, and defeats their army, occupying a lot of the Han majority areas, maybe everything north of the Yellow River. The rest of China is either left under a rump state, or divided by the other european colonial powers.

Starting from this scenario I ask you: How would this Russian occupied territory look like? The Russian empire managed to fully colonize siberia due it's large population, but now the russians are the ones outnumbered and it seems like a question of time until a new Red Turban rebellion happens and push the russians out, so before this happens, how the chinese culture, economy and the average life in Russian occupied Russia is?
 
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Before starting, let me clarify two things: I'm not S.M. Stirling, and I know that it is impossible for Russia to integrate any han majority area of China, it doesn't matter how far away we put the PoD. Second, I'm not praising russian imperialism or anything like that.

Here is the scenario: The Russian Empire defeats the Qing Dynasty on a alternate war in the 1800s, taking over Manchuria and Xinjiang. For some unspeciefied reason, the empire is able to survive and to defeat both the japanese innfluence in asia and also to take over Korea. After that the Russian empire attacks China again, be a rump Qing or a Republic, or a new dynasty, and defeats their army, occupying a lot of the Han majority areas, maybe everything north of the Yalu River. The rest of China is either left under a rump state, or divided by the other european colonial powers.
Ok first off, if in the first war Russia gets Manchuria and later gets Korea, then it's already occupying territory south of the Yalu. By any chance did you mean a different river?

Second of all, Russia's going to have to have a much different 1800s with it needing to industrialize and have it's Siberian settlement boom at least 40 years earlier than OTL. That's just to be able to carry out a massive invasion of China, no guarantee that they'd be able to negotiate for what you propose, and absolutely no way the rest of Europe's colonial powers are going to sit back as Russia suddenly becomes the most populous country in the world.

Starting from this scenario I ask you: How would this Russian occupied territory look like? The Russian empire managed to fully colonize siberia due it's large population, but now the russians are the ones outnumbered and it seems like a question of time until a new Red Turban rebellion happens and push the russians out, so before this happens, how the chinese culture, economy and the average life in Russian occupied Russia is?
Honestly, the beastly Russia that would be required for this scenario would be unrecognizable from it's OTL counterpart.
 
Yellow River. Sorry.
Whew that's a lot of land and people. Yeah Russia's getting ganked by a Napoleonic-esque coalition of its European rivals. If that doesn't preoccupy them then I guess they would probably try to use their Chinese subjects as the British use India, a captive market for industrial goods (TTL's Russia is basically going to have to be an industrial super power so that could work quite well for them).

I think a more prominent question would be what Russia will try to keep come the massive rebellion and European coalition. The low population density regions of Xinjiang, Outer Mongolia, and much of Inner Manchuria (assuming this is pre-Chuang Guandong) could be prime settler land.

edit: and Rason Korea as a warm water port
 
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Whew that's a lot of land and people. Yeah Russia's getting ganked by a Napoleonic-esque coalition of its European rivals. If that doesn't preoccupy them then I guess they would probably try to use their Chinese subjects as the British use India, a captive market for industrial goods (TTL's Russia is basically going to have to be an industrial super power so that could work quite well for them).

I think a more prominent question would be what Russia will try to keep come the massive rebellion and European coalition. The low population density regions of Xinjiang, Outer Mongolia, and much of Inner Manchuria (assuming this is pre-Chuang Guandong) could be prime settler land.

edit: and Rason Korea as a warm water port

Can't the europeans decide to split China? France can advance in Guandong and Britain from Shangai
 
Can't the europeans decide to split China? France can advance in Guandong and Britain from Shangai
They'd never be able to agree on a "fair" partition. An "open door policy" like what was devised IOTL is most optimal as it simply made China a market to all of Europe and America.
 
Can't the europeans decide to split China? France can advance in Guandong and Britain from Shangai

No partition will ever be fair to any one party. The only 'fair' partition would be if their side gets the prime real estate while everyone else gets crap. Like @SealTheRealDeal said, militarily enforced free trade was the optimal solution for the Westerners (though, obviously, not so much for the Qing). Besides, how're you going to hold on to a country this populous? Even the British had immense problems holding onto India. China would be a severe hassle that'd cripple any colonization attempts by the European powers, far more than letting the Qing whittle itself away taking the brunt of the revolts.
 
The best-case scenario for sustained Russian rule would be to go native, but that's completely implausible that late. Depending on when exactly it occurs but I'm going to go with the best-case scenario for Russia here. Like, once in in one billion lifetimes tier best-case scenario.

After allying with Napoleon, Russia turns all of its efforts east and experiences wild and unexpected success against China. With France's full support and Britain essentially occupied indefinitely with France, Russia is able to annex all lands down to the Yellow River. However, attempting to establish rule in this region quickly becomes unfeasible and Russian control of the countryside is a fiction within a year. Down south, China is in chaos as Manchu rule has collapsed and competing states vie for dominance in order to push the foreigners out, playing heavily to Han nationalism and ethnocentrism. Russia's heavyhanded attempts at governance ultimately prove ineffective and simply fuel both unrest in their portion of China and the rallying cries of Free China.

After sinking money endlessly into trying and failing to administer China, Russia decides to try for a new approach and divides Han Chinese lands into client states after about ten years of failure. Maintaining control of major coastal cities and foreign relations, Russia's client states are dominated by a Russified clique of Han Chinese and their Russian patrons, largely military men who have manned control of major fortresses which act as a stabilizing factor for the Han Chinese rulers of these client states; nevermind that most of them are privately Orthodox Christians and have personally sworn fealty to the Tsar.

While Russian China settles down somewhat, the feuding between the Free Chinese states creates a refugee situation that ironically, sees many Chinese fleeing north to the more stable and economically productive Russian Chinese provinces which are quickly recovering economically as a result of top-down enforcement of reformed taxation policy. The decade of instability had done much to break the people's faith in previous systems and frankly, the results spoke for themselves. There was, however, an undercurrent of slight Russification in these provinces. Russian businessmen dominated China's nascent industries, the bureaucracy was dominated by Russians and Russian-speaking Chinese, and there was a building boom of Russian Orthodox churches which acted as middlemen for aspiring young men seeking to prosper in the new China, as well as the primary handlers of refugees. It was often recent immigrants that became the most pro-Russia as a result, ironically enough.

As the refugee situation grew more dire and northern China strained, Russia decided to take action and push further south, establishing client states alongside the Chinese coast in a series of wars and crushing the most destructive and anti-Russian factions in Free China, while essentially turning other factions that were viewed as too troublesome to war with into client states. It was a gradual, and long process, but by the end of it, China was largely controlled by a series of Russian-dominated and native patchwork much like the British in India. Peace was fragile, but sustained by the economic revitalization of China in the period following Russian conquest.

  • At some point, Russia's attention will be forced West and an opportunistic vassal or two will shake some of Russia's shackles
  • If/When Russia suffers a military defeat that ties up most of their manpower, expect peace to shatter like dominos
  • However far more prosperous and familiarized with the West and their advances, the wars in China will result in the most prepared and modern army establishing relatively quick rule over the majority of China. Some states may hold out for Russia, others may opportunistically swap sides when the tide turns
  • However, this state that now rules most of China is one of the most Russified. It's economy is largely dominated by Russians, it's leaders are Orthodox Christian, and so on. The military is as much Russian as it is Chinese and it's largely tied together by the charisma of its leader. As a result, this state used a pretext of reestablishing order in Russian China in the name of the Tsar as the reason for their military actions. So de jure, the Russian Tsar remains 'Emperor of China' for strictly out of necessity to keep the Russian elements of society placated. In practice, this isn't the case, but Russophilia dominates the upper echelons. An alliance with Russia is quickly proposed to Moscow, the army operates in Russian, as do the upper crust, the capitalists, the bureaucrats, and the well-educated
  • Russia, having lost utterly in their war in Europe, are left without much choice but to accept, not willing to reengage in Chinese adventures so long as the markets of China remain entirely open to them. All non-Han lands in Northern China remain under Russian control as do a few key port cities, but the end result is largely a Russian Chinese dynasty.
  • The Russian-Chinese border may as well be nonexistant, and Russians and Russified Chinese are the first-class citizens of the state. It's very existence is sustained on the continued economic prosperity of the Chinese people making them unwilling to shatter the status quo. The position of the state's leaders is far more perilous than it'd appear at first glance as without the existence of the Russo-Chinese military class and the incidental means of social mobility that were established via the Orthodox Churches and the military, society would largely collapse and Russian elements in China expunged with swiftness
  • The even-handedness of the Tsar is the only reason the state still exists. If Russia decided to declare war for reannexation, the ruling class would tear itself apart into a civil war and the Free China era would return with a vengeance.
 
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What about Russia conquering the Manchus instead forcing Ming China to a puppet status.

Russia would need to start going east a lot faster then. By the time they were bordering China the Qing were already in control of China. The Russians did try to attack the Qing at that point and lost. They ended up driven back to Baikal in fact.
 
Russia would need to start going east a lot faster then. By the time they were bordering China the Qing were already in control of China. The Russians did try to attack the Qing at that point and lost. They ended up driven back to Baikal in fact.
Well, there's always the POD of the Shun Dynasty winning at Shanhaiguan (or Li Zicheng getting Wu Sangui to join him) but being too distracted by crushing the Southern Ming to conquer the (proto-)Qing.
 
The best-case scenario for sustained Russian rule would be to go native, but that's completely implausible that late. Depending on when exactly it occurs but I'm going to go with the best-case scenario for Russia here. Like, once in in one billion lifetimes tier best-case scenario.

After allying with Napoleon, Russia turns all of its efforts east and experiences wild and unexpected success against China. With France's full support and Britain essentially occupied indefinitely with France, Russia is able to annex all lands down to the Yellow River. However, attempting to establish rule in this region quickly becomes unfeasible and Russian control of the countryside is a fiction within a year. Down south, China is in chaos as Manchu rule has collapsed and competing states vie for dominance in order to push the foreigners out, playing heavily to Han nationalism and ethnocentrism. Russia's heavyhanded attempts at governance ultimately prove ineffective and simply fuel both unrest in their portion of China and the rallying cries of Free China.

After sinking money endlessly into trying and failing to administer China, Russia decides to try for a new approach and divides Han Chinese lands into client states after about ten years of failure. Maintaining control of major coastal cities and foreign relations, Russia's client states are dominated by a Russified clique of Han Chinese and their Russian patrons, largely military men who have manned control of major fortresses which act as a stabilizing factor for the Han Chinese rulers of these client states; nevermind that most of them are privately Orthodox Christians and have personally sworn fealty to the Tsar.

While Russian China settles down somewhat, the feuding between the Free Chinese states creates a refugee situation that ironically, sees many Chinese fleeing north to the more stable and economically productive Russian Chinese provinces which are quickly recovering economically as a result of top-down enforcement of reformed taxation policy. The decade of instability had done much to break the people's faith in previous systems and frankly, the results spoke for themselves. There was, however, an undercurrent of slight Russification in these provinces. Russian businessmen dominated China's nascent industries, the bureaucracy was dominated by Russians and Russian-speaking Chinese, and there was a building boom of Russian Orthodox churches which acted as middlemen for aspiring young men seeking to prosper in the new China, as well as the primary handlers of refugees. It was often recent immigrants that became the most pro-Russia as a result, ironically enough.

As the refugee situation grew more dire and northern China strained, Russia decided to take action and push further south, establishing client states alongside the Chinese coast in a series of wars and crushing the most destructive and anti-Russian factions in Free China, while essentially turning other factions that were viewed as too troublesome to war with into client states. It was a gradual, and long process, but by the end of it, China was largely controlled by a series of Russian-dominated and native patchwork much like the British in India. Peace was fragile, but sustained by the economic revitalization of China in the period following Russian conquest.

  • At some point, Russia's attention will be forced West and an opportunistic vassal or two will shake some of Russia's shackles
  • If/When Russia suffers a military defeat that ties up most of their manpower, expect peace to shatter like dominos
  • However far more prosperous and familiarized with the West and their advances, the wars in China will result in the most prepared and modern army establishing relatively quick rule over the majority of China. Some states may hold out for Russia, others may opportunistically swap sides when the tide turns
  • However, this state that now rules most of China is one of the most Russified. It's economy is largely dominated by Russians, it's leaders are Orthodox Christian, and so on. The military is as much Russian as it is Chinese and it's largely tied together by the charisma of its leader. As a result, this state used a pretext of reestablishing order in Russian China in the name of the Tsar as the reason for their military actions. So de jure, the Russian Tsar remains 'Emperor of China' for strictly out of necessity to keep the Russian elements of society placated. In practice, this isn't the case, but Russophilia dominates the upper echelons. An alliance with Russia is quickly proposed to Moscow, the army operates in Russian, as do the upper crust, the capitalists, the bureaucrats, and the well-educated
  • Russia, having lost utterly in their war in Europe, are left without much choice but to accept, not willing to reengage in Chinese adventures so long as the markets of China remain entirely open to them. All non-Han lands in Northern China remain under Russian control as do a few key port cities, but the end result is largely a Russian Chinese dynasty.
  • The Russian-Chinese border may as well be nonexistant, and Russians and Russified Chinese are the first-class citizens of the state. It's very existence is sustained on the continued economic prosperity of the Chinese people making them unwilling to shatter the status quo. The position of the state's leaders is far more perilous than it'd appear at first glance as without the existence of the Russo-Chinese military class and the incidental means of social mobility that were established via the Orthodox Churches and the military, society would largely collapse and Russian elements in China expunged with swiftness
  • The even-handedness of the Tsar is the only reason the state still exists. If Russia decided to declare war for reannexation, the ruling class would tear itself apart into a civil war and the Free China era would return with a vengeance.


I loved this! Thank you very much!
 
Well, there's always the POD of the Shun Dynasty winning at Shanhaiguan (or Li Zicheng getting Wu Sangui to join him) but being too distracted by crushing the Southern Ming to conquer the (proto-)Qing.

I honestly think that at that point the Manchu would still be able to hold of a few hundred cossascks on their home turf.
 

Maoistic

Banned
Just as bad as British Tibet or Kowloon Walled city in British Hong Kong and worse than Communist China.
 
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