How would a modern Ottoman Empire function?

Let's say the Ottomans never lost the land that they did back in WW1?

How would they function going into present day? I figure it would become a constitutional monarchy divided up into different areas (kinda like Greater Austria plan), but I'm wondering how things would go.

Especially in modernizing. Because while Ataturk could modernize Anatolia, would would that fare for the other parts of the Empire? I mean, would they try and force an Arabic Latin onto their other areas (Iraq, Kurdistan, etc) or would they try and put another language, like maybe Syriac.

For added context, their neighbors down south would probably be an Arabia controlled by the Rishidi and thus their allies.
 

Germaniac

Donor
Just imagining the Ottomans stay out of WW1.

The Political situation in the immediate post war Ottoman Empire was a mess. The CUP had turned into a dictatorship the Liberal Entente (effectively the prewar opposition to the CUP) had been entirely discredited by the 1st Balkan War and the Military was now on the side of the CUP. The legislature was now sidelined, and the brief experiment with democracy was essentially over.

With the loss of the Balkan territories the Ottomans had moved from a concept of Ottomanism to a nationalist Turkish concept. The Arab regions would chaff considerably at this.

This situation is TOTALLY untenable.

With the proto Facsist elements of the CUP in command there will be considerable interal civil strife and this will likely lead to a collapse in the spiritual power of the caliph. Eventually, likely within 15 years, the empire will shread apart with turkey, likely larger containing more of northern syria and Mosul and the surrounding area of northern iraq.
 
Just imagining the Ottomans stay out of WW1.

The Political situation in the immediate post war Ottoman Empire was a mess. The CUP had turned into a dictatorship the Liberal Entente (effectively the prewar opposition to the CUP) had been entirely discredited by the 1st Balkan War and the Military was now on the side of the CUP. The legislature was now sidelined, and the brief experiment with democracy was essentially over.

With the loss of the Balkan territories the Ottomans had moved from a concept of Ottomanism to a nationalist Turkish concept. The Arab regions would chaff considerably at this.

This situation is TOTALLY untenable.

With the proto Facsist elements of the CUP in command there will be considerable interal civil strife and this will likely lead to a collapse in the spiritual power of the caliph. Eventually, likely within 15 years, the empire will shread apart with turkey, likely larger containing more of northern syria and Mosul and the surrounding area of northern iraq.

Okay then, then let's say the Central Powers won then (say March 1917) within this case? I'm trying to figure something out for a future project
 
I digress with the Empire disintegrating into the OTL turkish borders. The Great Arab Revolt wasn’t even supported by half of the arabs within ottoman territory, who were actually pretty okay with rule from Istanbul, especially after the ottoman balkans were lost.
I could, theoretically, see a surviving Ottoman Empire controlling almost the same territory it controlled in 1914, minus possibly Lebanon, Armenia, and the hedjaz.
 
Perhaps the Ottomans can win the 1st Balkan War thus helping the liberals stay in power?

The point of the question isn't how the Ottomans stay in power, but more how a modern Ottoman Empire could look like. Hence why I will say that it would be in the Central Powers victory. And then what? How would the culture change, especially since let's say Ataturk becomes some sort of Governor to Anatolia of not the first Prime Minister, over seeing not just Anatolia, but the parts of the Empire

I digress with the Empire disintegrating into the OTL turkish borders. The Great Arab Revolt wasn’t even supported by half of the arabs within ottoman territory, who were actually pretty okay with rule from Istanbul, especially after the ottoman balkans were lost.
I could, theoretically, see a surviving Ottoman Empire controlling almost the same territory it controlled in 1914, minus possibly Lebanon, Armenia, and the hedjaz.

Hence why i picture good terms with the Arabs, most likely the Rishidis with the situation I post above. Although, why would they lose Lebanon and Armenia? I could the Hedjaz becoming its own nation as some sort of Middle Eastern Switzerland
 

ben0628

Banned
The point of the question isn't how the Ottomans stay in power, but more how a modern Ottoman Empire could look like. Hence why I will say that it would be in the Central Powers victory. And then what? How would the culture change, especially since let's say Ataturk becomes some sort of Governor to Anatolia of not the first Prime Minister, over seeing not just Anatolia, but the parts of the Empire

In a scenario where the Central Powers wins, I could see the Ottoman Empire conquering Armenia, parts of Georgia, and Azerbaijan. These regions, as well as Turkey itself would be the core of the empire, where all the cultures would be forcibly assimilated into Turkish culture.

As for the Arab parts of the empire, as Caliphate I doubt the empire would give up Mecca and Medina without a fight, which means the Arab sections would be federalized as autonomous regions (Hedjaz, Palestine, Syria, Central and Southern Iraq).

As to Palestine specifically, I could see the Jews getting special privileges and in return they would help the Empire keep Palestinian/Arab revolts in the region at a minimum.

The main question is what happens when oil is discovered in the Arabian Desert. This area was only under Ottoman influence, not direct control, so its hard to say what happens (especially if other powers, aka Britain want that oil). Of course if the Ottomans can get there hands on Baku during WW1, they'd get the oil in the Caspian Sea, so they may not give too much of a fuss over Arabian oil and content themselves with what they have.

Imperial wealth would go towards the military and improving Turkey proper, which means eventually the non-Turkish parts of the empire would become discontent with the status quo and revolt (but most likely fail, I doubt the Arabs and other groups within the empire could succeed at overthrowing Turkish rule without foreign intervention).
 
In a scenario where the Central Powers wins, I could see the Ottoman Empire conquering Armenia, parts of Georgia, and Azerbaijan. These regions, as well as Turkey itself would be the core of the empire, where all the cultures would be forcibly assimilated into Turkish culture.

As for the Arab parts of the empire, as Caliphate I doubt the empire would give up Mecca and Medina without a fight, which means the Arab sections would be federalized as autonomous regions (Hedjaz, Palestine, Syria, Central and Southern Iraq).

As to Palestine specifically, I could see the Jews getting special privileges and in return they would help the Empire keep Palestinian/Arab revolts in the region at a minimum.

The main question is what happens when oil is discovered in the Arabian Desert. This area was only under Ottoman influence, not direct control, so its hard to say what happens (especially if other powers, aka Britain want that oil). Of course if the Ottomans can get there hands on Baku during WW1, they'd get the oil in the Caspian Sea, so they may not give too much of a fuss over Arabian oil and content themselves with what they have.

Imperial wealth would go towards the military and improving Turkey proper, which means eventually the non-Turkish parts of the empire would become discontent with the status quo and revolt (but most likely fail, I doubt the Arabs and other groups within the empire could succeed at overthrowing Turkish rule without foreign intervention).

First, thank you for your good answer.

Well, it would all depend. Circumstances do have WWI start a bit differently (Archduke got shot, but survived and Germany advised on the Ottomans doing a siilar route to Franz's United States of Greater Austria plan). My guess is that Turkey will try and assimilate some folk, but will focus on stabilization and reforms, so they'd probably be good with such. Hedjaz, Palestine, Syria and the two Iraws would be autonomous regions, and I'm thinking of Kurdistan as well, if namely because of how things were drawn and the new government doesn't wanna offside itself. I am thinking it'd kidna be like how Scotland and Wales and such exist within the UK.

Whether Mecca and Medina go off on their own does depened on how secular the Ottoman Empire will become. If religiosus tensions boil over, the focus would be on secular. Heck, Hedjaz becoming the Switzerland of the Middle East would allow Muslims from around the world to be able to make their treks without fear of political problems in the event they're not in the Mittelmachte.

As for oil, well, that depends on the where. Oil in wjat would be Iraq and Kuwait would be discovered and the money would go to improving the whole Empire and such. I don't think they'd get Azerbaijin.

As for Arabian oil, well, the oil-rich places (like in the desert and Bahrain I believe) would be in the control of Rashidi Arabia, which would be allies to the Ottomans and the rest of the Central Powers (all that black gold for the German machines.)

Ottomans in particular might even give the Jews their own automatous state to help out with such.

However, World War I's outcome does mean that nationalism is kicked in the balls though.
 

Germaniac

Donor
Well the Liberals were as much if not mpre ineffective. Winning the first balkan war isn't impossible but its tough.

Let's say the Central Powers win and Envar Pasha somehow gets put of power then theres a chance. The state will be centralized. There is no way the empire remains together without it. Arab national consience was low, but they are not going to be happy when oil money starts getting sent elsewhere. But let's say all of the ethnic issues are butterflied.

1) the state will be centralized with power resting with the parliment and the cabinet. Ethnic groups will decide representatives based of tribal connections much like pre war. There will be little to no autonomous control, minus concessions for Jews in Palestine and the Levant. Arabia will stay under Rashid control and will be closely aligned with the Ottomans.

2. Jews will be widely encouraged to emigrate to the region. Prior to the 1st Balkan war the center of Jewish life in the empire was focused on Salonika. So you might likely to see their language (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaeo-Spanish) becoming the language of ottoman jews. Constantinople saw the Jews as benificial and treatment would be likely better than other ethnic groups.

3. THE military was going through massive upheavals in the years before the war. While the First balkan war looked like a total mess, the military actually preformed well considering the circumstances. The military leaders (mostly members of the Liberals who were also largely absolute monarchists) found every excuse to lose and were thrown out following the war. The army would be the SINGLE most powerful voice in the nation (much like in turkey for most of its history)

More incoming but im on a phone.
 

Germaniac

Donor
I really want to emphasise that if the Ottoman Empire continues to exist it will be a centralized state. There is no way it survives because the Turks will always be seen as oppressors in that scenario. They will nees to embrace an empire wide culture fpcused on Ottoman identity, otherwise Nationalism will eventually win out it might just take longer.

In a Central Powers victory scenario the wests capitulations are gone. Fpr the most part this system will be replaced by German investments. This will be MUCH smaller than western investment. Germany will be dealing with the russian territories they've won and the French and British coffers are now closed to them. While the numbers will be lower the Germans are determined to have a ready supply of oil. Railroad construction will be sped up and there will be an expanded effort at oil exploration and development of infrastructure.

The money from this will mostly go toward industrialization in anatolia and towards the military. This will likely lead to greater development of travel between the cities in the middle east, much more connected and sensical than what happened otl under colonial rule.

Ataturk will likely not be involved in politics, at least not directly. I could totally see him becoming some combination of Chief of staff and minister of war and a leader as part of a triumvirate.
 
Well the Liberals were as much if not mpre ineffective. Winning the first balkan war isn't impossible but its tough.

Let's say the Central Powers win and Envar Pasha somehow gets put of power then theres a chance. The state will be centralized. There is no way the empire remains together without it. Arab national consience was low, but they are not going to be happy when oil money starts getting sent elsewhere. But let's say all of the ethnic issues are butterflied.

1) the state will be centralized with power resting with the parliment and the cabinet. Ethnic groups will decide representatives based of tribal connections much like pre war. There will be little to no autonomous control, minus concessions for Jews in Palestine and the Levant. Arabia will stay under Rashid control and will be closely aligned with the Ottomans.

2. Jews will be widely encouraged to emigrate to the region. Prior to the 1st Balkan war the center of Jewish life in the empire was focused on Salonika. So you might likely to see their language (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaeo-Spanish) becoming the language of ottoman jews. Constantinople saw the Jews as benificial and treatment would be likely better than other ethnic groups.

3. THE military was going through massive upheavals in the years before the war. While the First balkan war looked like a total mess, the military actually preformed well considering the circumstances. The military leaders (mostly members of the Liberals who were also largely absolute monarchists) found every excuse to lose and were thrown out following the war. The army would be the SINGLE most powerful voice in the nation (much like in turkey for most of its history)

More incoming but im on a phone.

I really want to emphasise that if the Ottoman Empire continues to exist it will be a centralized state. There is no way it survives because the Turks will always be seen as oppressors in that scenario. They will nees to embrace an empire wide culture fpcused on Ottoman identity, otherwise Nationalism will eventually win out it might just take longer.

In a Central Powers victory scenario the wests capitulations are gone. Fpr the most part this system will be replaced by German investments. This will be MUCH smaller than western investment. Germany will be dealing with the russian territories they've won and the French and British coffers are now closed to them. While the numbers will be lower the Germans are determined to have a ready supply of oil. Railroad construction will be sped up and there will be an expanded effort at oil exploration and development of infrastructure.

The money from this will mostly go toward industrialization in anatolia and towards the military. This will likely lead to greater development of travel between the cities in the middle east, much more connected and sensical than what happened otl under colonial rule.

Ataturk will likely not be involved in politics, at least not directly. I could totally see him becoming some combination of Chief of staff and minister of war and a leader as part of a triumvirate.

I would like to thank you as well for your contributions as well. I apprecaite the input and insight :)

Well, as for the oil thing, my guess is that it would be more well-known Iraqis of the area (especially with Turkish education maybe) who end up running the oil wells at first. Whether or not they'd be nationalized is another thing to figure out. You raise a good point on the autonomous control point, though I figure they might due something of an exception with Hedjaz because fo Medina and Mecca. That, or the two become the Muslim versions of Vatican City.

I reckon the influx of Jews would help alot of parties, especially in Arabic areas with potential language things. I'm figuring some form of Latin-based Arabic would be introduced in the Ottomans (or at least an Arabic alphabet that read from left-to-right with easier scricpture).

I reckon that yeah. a new form of multicultural identity would be needed. Though they probably wouldn't call themselves the Ottoman Empire. Suggestions on names?

I figure most of the money would go toward industrilization and such. I'm nto sure how much of the military since I'm not sure what other conflicts could arise (but that's part of my project.)

I suppose one mroe thing to note that I forgot. How do you think the Ottomans would be with potential coloneis/vassals?

I'm thinking the Ottomans would get North Africa from France along with Libya from italy and probably dual-custody of Egypt with Germany? I reckon they would divide the areas up into vassal areas better for the region though I reckon the Sahara could be divided into larger territories that the Mittelmachte as a whole would oversee until its settled.
 
What about the fate of the Arabic/Perso-Arabic script for the written Turkish language? There were practical, aside from ideological, reasons as to why Latin script was adopted following the Turkish War of Independence, in that it is more phonetically accessible and harmonious (for lack of a better term), leading to an increased rate of literacy.
 
I really want to emphasise that if the Ottoman Empire continues to exist it will be a centralized state.

This is true. The Ottoman elites were opposed to and terrified of federalization, partly due to the Ottoman Empire's negative experiences in the 19th century. They would never allow the creation of a new territorial autonomy without massive international pressure; let alone enact some kind of a transplanted "Greater Austria" scheme. (This would be a strange sight indeed; since the original Greater Austria scheme was the fantasy of a low-ranking politician, and never actually supported by Franz Ferdinand or any other power).
 
State(s) actually or seremonically ruled by House of Osman could look quite different from one another.

1.)Avoidance of further warfare in Imperial territories after 1900 could lead to a weak, pro-British "Lebanonized" constitutional monarchy, led by old court elites.

Weak central government and a secret police keeping the dissidents in check. A parliament with limited francise and powers, and set quotas for minorities. Foreign-imposed local autonomy for European provinces, Armenians and Lebanon. Official state ideology is still Ottomanism.

2.) Sufic Theocracy. After a narrow victory in the 1st Balkan War, the Empire retained a continuous land area from the Adriatic to the Black Sea. Postwar violence and repression led ro to wide population movements, with Balkan Muslims fleeing to Ottoman lands and Christians moving out, resulting to Muslim majorities in the remaining Ottoman lands in Europe.

The role of Islam as the unifying power of the state has since been emphasized. But since the court has always favored various Sufi schools instead of hardliner views like Salafism, the new regime is acceptably moderate to avoid further Western criticism.

3.) Pan-Turkic rump state. Defeats in Balkan War led to rise of Turkic nationalism, and postwar foreign interventions have witnessed southern Arab-majority areas going to the way of Egypt: they are still nominally Ottoman, but de facto controlled by Britain. The victory at Caucasus at the closing stages of the Great War and Russian revolution most likely saved the Empire from total dissolution, as the inclusion of Azeri territories and Baku oilfields has given the one-party police state a new sense of Pan-Turanic purpose. Expansionistic towards Central Asia, the one-party police state of the modern Ottoman state is loathed by all of its neighbours because of the ruthless suppression of non-Turkic population.
 
What about the fate of the Arabic/Perso-Arabic script for the written Turkish language? There were practical, aside from ideological, reasons as to why Latin script was adopted following the Turkish War of Independence, in that it is more phonetically accessible and harmonious (for lack of a better term), leading to an increased rate of literacy.

Turkic Latin script would be adopted for at least Anatolia and probably the rest of the Empire as well. However,. they might also tyr and make a better Latin Arabic script (one that would go left to right at least)
 

Germaniac

Donor
2.) Sufic Theocracy. After a narrow victory in the 1st Balkan War, the Empire retained a continuous land area from the Adriatic to the Black Sea. Postwar violence and repression led ro to wide population movements, with Balkan Muslims fleeing to Ottoman lands and Christians moving out, resulting to Muslim majorities in the remaining Ottoman lands in Europe.

The role of Islam as the unifying power of the state has since been emphasized. But since the court has always favored various Sufi schools instead of hardliner views like Salafism, the new regime is acceptably moderate to avoid further Western criticism.
.

I couldn't disagree with this more. Any violence occuring against ethnic minorities, save for those openly rebelling like the Albanians, is going to be minimal. One of the major reasons fot the CUP shift to dictatorship was that their power base was located in Rumelia. Loosing those provinces meant the christian and jewish minorities of the empire were gone. Had the Ottomans won the war and faced no territorial losses the power of islam in the empire would be lessened not heightened.

If you look at the coalitions formed prior to the war there were healthy amounts of Greeks Jews Bulgarians and Macedonians in both the parliment and in cabinent positions (though not the most important offices)

One thing thats always been facinating about the Ottomans was there openness to allow any person loyal to the empire, regardless of their ethnic or religious background, have positions in bith the military and the government. Well... until their series of disasters in both wars and seemingly endless coups leading to the proto fascist tendencies during the great war.
 
I couldn't disagree with this more. Any violence occuring against ethnic minorities, save for those openly rebelling like the Albanians, is going to be minimal. One of the major reasons fot the CUP shift to dictatorship was that their power base was located in Rumelia. Loosing those provinces meant the christian and jewish minorities of the empire were gone. Had the Ottomans won the war and faced no territorial losses the power of islam in the empire would be lessened not heightened.

If you look at the coalitions formed prior to the war there were healthy amounts of Greeks Jews Bulgarians and Macedonians in both the parliment and in cabinent positions (though not the most important offices)

One thing thats always been facinating about the Ottomans was there openness to allow any person loyal to the empire, regardless of their ethnic or religious background, have positions in bith the military and the government. Well... until their series of disasters in both wars and seemingly endless coups leading to the proto fascist tendencies during the great war.

Oh wow, that's pretty fascinating. So yeah, the Ottoman Empire will definitely be able to maintain this mentality, including with their North African vassals. I also come up with a suggestion of a new name: The Ottoman United Sultanate. It does sound odd, but I am wondering what other names they could call themselves.

Also, how would they be with vassals? Would they form some variation of the British Commonwealth with them?
 
I couldn't disagree with this more. Any violence occuring against ethnic minorities, save for those openly rebelling like the Albanians, is going to be minimal. One of the major reasons fot the CUP shift to dictatorship was that their power base was located in Rumelia. Loosing those provinces meant the christian and jewish minorities of the empire were gone. Had the Ottomans won the war and faced no territorial losses the power of islam in the empire would be lessened not heightened.

Just to clarify: my earlier post just mentioned one possible route the Ottoman state could survive to modern times, and the scenario described there was just a way to bring this situation around. The Ottomans were or less bound to lose territory in a case of a major, but still localized war against the Balkan Powers with Great Power packers. Even when they won against Greece in 1897, the results at the peace table were dismal. Like you must certainly know, the OTL war meant the end of political Ottomanism as a serious alternative, leaving only Turkic nationalism and Islam as the possible options. The ethnic cleansing and religious violence and mutual reprisals brought along masses of refugees in OTL.
 
I also come up with a suggestion of a new name: The Ottoman United Sultanate. It does sound odd, but I am wondering what other names they could call themselves.
The Ottoman States would be a lot simpler. It'd also imply some degree of federation or confederation, with the Ottomans as head of state but independent or shared heads of government. I've played around with this in a Hashemite perspective, and what I came up with was a Head of State (Caliph/Sharif), who was responsible for things like the religious courts, a Head of Government (Minister-President) responsible for the major details (foreign policy, national industries like oil, the military) and then State Ministers responsible for local governance.
 
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