How would a British collaboration government have looked like?

[Alexniko]

Suppose Britain is occupied by Nazi Germany during the fall of 1940. I know that this is highly implausible, but the military aspects of Operation Sealion are not the point of this thread.

My question is, how would a German collaboration government in Britain look like? Who might lead such a government? Which groups are potential collaborators? How would this government justify itself in terms of ideology and which policies would it pursue? Would the collaboration movements be openly fascist, or rather a big-tent "no more war with Germany" kind of thing? Would the Germans just put the BUF in power, as they did with similiar movements in the Netherlands and Norway? Or would they rather base their occupation on a British Petain that attempts to rally all of the right to the collaborationist banner?

 

[Dorknought]

Who might lead such a government?

None of the ones on this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_(list)

 

[Lalli]

Whole scenario is totally ASB but probably Edward VIII would be restored as king and Oswald Mosley would be prime minister.

 

[Garrison]

Suppose Britain is occupied by Nazi Germany during the fall of 1940. I know that this is highly implausible, but the military aspects of Operation Sealion are not the point of this thread.

My question is, how would a German collaboration government in Britain look like? Who might lead such a government? Which groups are potential collaborators? How would this government justify itself in terms of ideology and which policies would it pursue? Would the collaboration movements be openly fascist, or rather a big-tent "no more war with Germany" kind of thing? Would the Germans just put the BUF in power, as they did with similiar movements in the Netherlands and Norway? Or would they rather base their occupation on a British Petain that attempts to rally all of the right to the collaborationist banner?

I just re-read Operation Sealion by Leo McKinstry and he discusses a number of German documents that suggest the Nazis didn't intend to create a collaborationist government along the lines of Vichy France but instead to impose a direct military government. Also Mosely was not well regarded in Berlin. There were a few extreme elements outside of the BEF with excellent connections in the upper classes, but few of them seem like leadership material. Maybe look at the likes of the Nordic League and some of its associated groups? Time Tate's 'Hitler's British Traitors' is fairly comprehensive about the various fascist groups and some of the well heeled people involved in them.

 

[Garrison]

Whole scenario is totally ASB but probably Edward VIII would be restored as king and Oswald Mosley would be prime minister.

Like I say Moseley was not popular in Berlin and the British did their absolute best to keep Edward VIII out of German hands, also discussed at length in Operation Sealion.

 

[Dorknought]

David Lloyd George as PM (they hold his daughter) and Edward back on the throne.

From Wiki:

Lloyd George was consistently pro-German after 1923, in part due to his growing conviction that Germany had been treated unfairly at Versailles.

• He supported German demands for territorial concessions and recognition of its "great power" status.
• In a speech in 1933, he warned that if Adolf Hitler were overthrown, communism would replace him in Germany.
• In August 1934, he insisted Germany could not wage war and assured European nations that there would be no risk of war during the next ten years.
• In September 1936, he visited Germany to talk with Hitler. Hitler said he was pleased to have met "the man who won the war"; Lloyd George was moved, and called Hitler "the greatest living German".
• Lloyd George also visited Germany's public works programmes and was impressed.
• On his return to Britain, he wrote an article for the Daily Express praising Hitler and stating: "The Germans have definitely made up their minds never to quarrel with us again."
• He believed Hitler was "the George Washington of Germany"; that he was rearming Germany for defence and not for offensive war
• That a war between Germany and the Soviet Union would not happen for at least ten years
• That Hitler admired the British and wanted their friendship but that there was no British leadership to exploit this
• By 1937, Lloyd George's distaste for Neville Chamberlain led him to disavow Chamberlain's appeasement policies.

 

[broken-arrow]

Suppose Britain is occupied by Nazi Germany during the fall of 1940. I know that this is highly implausible, but the military aspects of Operation Sealion are not the point of this thread.

My question is, how would a German collaboration government in Britain look like? Who might lead such a government? Which groups are potential collaborators? How would this government justify itself in terms of ideology and which policies would it pursue? Would the collaboration movements be openly fascist, or rather a big-tent "no more war with Germany" kind of thing? Would the Germans just put the BUF in power, as they did with similiar movements in the Netherlands and Norway? Or would they rather base their occupation on a British Petain that attempts to rally all of the right to the collaborationist banner?

Could Lloyd George be propped up as a British Petain?

 

[Garrison]

Could Lloyd George be propped up as a British Petain?

He is a possible, but he is very much a spent force politically by 1940. Churchill did try to bring him into the cabinet but by the autumn of that year he had distinctly cooled on Lloyd-George because of his defeatist mentality. The problem is putting together any sort of supporting infrastructure, especially as there would inevitably be a government in exile.

 

[Psmith]

Lloyd George as Petain always entertains me and has done since Meet The New Boss did it. However, as couple of outside candidates ... Rab Butler or Sir John Simon (National Liberal bloke)? Neither are iconic but I imagine that would work something to the advantage of a collaborationist regime. Sir John could have enough establishment cred to legitimise a regime in the way the still-divisive DLG might not...

 

[Alexniko]

David Lloyd George as PM (they hold his daughter) and Edward back on the throne.

From Wiki:

Lloyd George was consistently pro-German after 1923, in part due to his growing conviction that Germany had been treated unfairly at Versailles.

• He supported German demands for territorial concessions and recognition of its "great power" status.
• In a speech in 1933, he warned that if Adolf Hitler were overthrown, communism would replace him in Germany.
• In August 1934, he insisted Germany could not wage war and assured European nations that there would be no risk of war during the next ten years.
• In September 1936, he visited Germany to talk with Hitler. Hitler said he was pleased to have met "the man who won the war"; Lloyd George was moved, and called Hitler "the greatest living German".
• Lloyd George also visited Germany's public works programmes and was impressed.
• On his return to Britain, he wrote an article for the Daily Express praising Hitler and stating: "The Germans have definitely made up their minds never to quarrel with us again."
• He believed Hitler was "the George Washington of Germany"; that he was rearming Germany for defence and not for offensive war
• That a war between Germany and the Soviet Union would not happen for at least ten years
• That Hitler admired the British and wanted their friendship but that there was no British leadership to exploit this
• By 1937, Lloyd George's distaste for Neville Chamberlain led him to disavow Chamberlain's appeasement policies.

Could Lloyd George be propped up as a British Petain?

He is a possible, but he is very much a spent force politically by 1940. Churchill did try to bring him into the cabinet but by the autumn of that year he had distinctly cooled on Lloyd-George because of his defeatist mentality. The problem is putting together any sort of supporting infrastructure, especially as there would inevitably be a government in exile.

Lloyd George as Petain always entertains me and has done since Meet The New Boss did it. However, as couple of outside candidates ... Rab Butler or Sir John Simon (National Liberal bloke)? Neither are iconic but I imagine that would work something to the advantage of a collaborationist regime. Sir John could have enough establishment cred to legitimise a regime in the way the still-divisive DLG might not...

Allright, Lloyd Geroge as the British Petain sounds plausible. But IMHO the more important question is, how would the collaborationist movement and administration look like? Which people would collaborate? Would the Germans insist on the installation of an actual fascist regime, or would they adopt an attitude in regards to the form of state of "live and let live, just as long as you do exactly what we want and your people don't get funny ideas about sovereignty and stuff"?

 

[Garrison]

Allright, Lloyd Geroge as the British Petain sounds plausible. But IMHO the more important question is, how would the collaborationist movement and administration look like? Which people would collaborate? Would the Germans insist on the installation of an actual fascist regime, or would they adopt an attitude in regards to the form of state of "live and let live, just as long as you do exactly what we want and your people don't get funny ideas about sovereignty and stuff"?

As I said earlier the German documents indicate they didn't plan on a collaborationist government but direct military rule, more akin to what they did in Poland than France.

 

[Alexniko]

As I said earlier the German documents indicate they didn't plan on a collaborationist government but direct military rule, more akin to what they did in Poland than France.

Fair, but what happens once the war is over? I doubt the Germans would turn Britain into a Reichskommisariat.

 

[Garrison]

Fair, but what happens once the war is over? I doubt the Germans would annex Britain as another Reichskommisariat.

Again based on the available documents that is more or less what they did plan. If there were any blueprints for a Vichy style regime they don't appear to have survived.

 

[Alexniko]

Again based on the available documents that is more or less what they did plan. If there were any blueprints for a Vichy style regime they don't appear to have survived.

Jesus, I didn't know that. It seems that Britain was to be treated a lot harsher than France.

 

[Garrison]

Jesus, I didn't know that. It seems that Britain was to be treated a lot harsher than France.

It surprised me too and if anyone has alternate source that discusses a more 'lenient' plan I would be interested to hear it. Of course such plans might be subject to change because of circumstances on the ground, but its hard to say how that would workout, might depend on how high a toll the Wehrmacht took in alt-Sealion.

 

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

Suppose Britain is occupied by Nazi Germany during the fall of 1940. I know that this is highly implausible, but the military aspects of Operation Sealion are not the point of this thread.

The Nazi's occupation of the Channel Islands might help with this.

I watched a program on the UK's Ch 5 a fair few years ago regarding a Nazi take over of the UK. Quite an eye opener especially the Bobby opening the door to the Kommandant's car and Noel Coward being on the Nazi death list!

 

[Alexniko]

It surprised me too and if anyone has alternate source that discusses a more 'lenient' plan I would be interested to hear it. Of course such plans might be subject to change because of circumstances on the ground, but its hard to say how that would workout, might depend on how high a toll the Wehrmacht took in alt-Sealion.

Well, according to the Wikipedia page (i.e. the most reliable source out there ), the Nazis eventually planned to set up a British satelite state once the war had come to a victorious conclusion. It also seems that the installation of either Ribbentrop or Bohle as Reichskommissar was more of a post-war rumor. However it also seems that, over the duration of the war, Britain was remain under direct German military occupation – some suggest that only the south was to be occupied, with the rest of Britain beeing placed under the control of a satelite state even during the war.

 

[New Cleo Genesis]

Lloyd George as Petain always entertains me and has done since Meet The New Boss did it. However, as couple of outside candidates ... Rab Butler or Sir John Simon (National Liberal bloke)? Neither are iconic but I imagine that would work something to the advantage of a collaborationist regime. Sir John could have enough establishment cred to legitimise a regime in the way the still-divisive DLG might not...

I've never really understood this obsession people seem to have with Rab Butler leading a collaborationist government. He had not done anything all that noteworthy by 1940, and was still very much a young man to boot. (Yes, I do know of the Powell "administrator" quote, but I'd take his word with a grain of salt the size of Snowdon.) I could still see him participating in a collaborationist government, of course.

 

[Simreeve]

Like I say Moseley was not popular in Berlin and the British did their absolute best to keep Edward VIII out of German hands, also discussed at length in Operation Sealion.

When the war began Moseley actually instructed the BUF's members to fight for Britain against Germany.

 

[marktaha]

Sir Samuel.Hoare most likely - Laval to Lloyd George's Petain?