How would a Berianist soviet union looks like?

Ok, here a dystopic question: Considering that against all odds, Beria becomes the leader of the Soviet Union, how would such state look like, and how it would develop different from the Kruschevist Soviet Union?

First of all, one condition I want to stabilish is that Beria is prepared for Stalin's death, let's not go for the conspiracy theories that he killed stalin or anything, but on this scenario he knows for a while that Stalin might be dead soon, and this allows him to pull enought resources, man and planning in taking over the State, and so at the death of Stalin he manages to use his huge wibe to overmanouver his enemies and take over the government, also purging Kruschev, Malenkov and others.

Another point is that this Beria holds the power until the end of his "sane" life, or to put more simple, he was born in 1899, let's say that he can commands the government before his capacity to lead gets seriously crippled on the mid-late 1970s, that means that we have a NKVD state that will last from 1953 until somewhere on the 70s. What are the butterflies on the cold war, and does this Soviet Union endures longer or less time than the OTL soviet union?
 
Beria might have actually ended the Cold War early, or at least greatly reduced it. IIRC he was in favor of allowing Germany to reunify, supported granting greater freedoms to the East Bloc states and the Baltics, and wanted better trade and diplomatic relations with the West.

That still leaves the USSR as a despotic police state headed by a serial killer and rapist, though
 
Beria might have actually ended the Cold War early, or at least greatly reduced it. IIRC he was in favor of allowing Germany to reunify, supported granting greater freedoms to the East Bloc states and the Baltics, and wanted better trade and diplomatic relations with the West.

That still leaves the USSR as a despotic police state headed by a serial killer and rapist, though

And what happens to this state? Does it survives until the modern era since the USA cannot pull the card "Occupator of eastern europe" anymore?
 
Beria might have actually ended the Cold War early, or at least greatly reduced it. IIRC he was in favor of allowing Germany to reunify, supported granting greater freedoms to the East Bloc states and the Baltics, and wanted better trade and diplomatic relations with the West.

That still leaves the USSR as a despotic police state headed by a serial killer and rapist, though

Yes, it's highly possible that Beria simply wanted to have his own despotic dictatorship, without too much care for outside influence or great geopolitical games.
 
Yes, it's highly possible that Beria simply wanted to have his own despotic dictatorship, without too much care for outside influence or great geopolitical games.

This does leave China and the fact that Beria is an absolute nutcase apparently may bean the Eastern Blocs and Baltics would flock over to the West. China meanwhile would be wanting to assert its influence but also probably stay far away from the Soviet monster.
 
This does leave China and the fact that Beria is an absolute nutcase apparently

Beria liked to do very unpleasant (understatement of the century) stuff to teenage girls, but politically he was less paranoid than Stalin IMHO (and this is among reasons why he OTL lost, overconfidence is among reasons in my humble opinion).
 
Yes, it's highly possible that Beria simply wanted to have his own despotic dictatorship, without too much care for outside influence or great geopolitical games.

But he is not immortal. After his death who could take power? What could happen? Maybe there is a De-berianization, or a continuation of his policies?
 
I have no idea about details, but I imagine very marginalized rubber-stamp government and "communist" party, with all true power that would lie in the internal security machine (that would fear and strictly control the army, much smaller than army of the OTL USSR).

Soviet economy may be, very ironically, healthier. Depends how severe internal purges would be (bad for productivity stuff), but as I said, Beria was politically slightly less paranoid than Stalin.
 
We have to remember that the "Beria planned to sell out the GDR" line was pushed by his victorious rivals as an ex post facto justification for vilifying him. Mark Kramer in a three-part 1999 article in the *Journal of Cold War Studies* has argued that the Soviet leadership *as a whole* favored reunification of Germany in May-June 1953 and only changed its mind after the uprising of June 17. Beria (whose ouster had already been planned) then became the convenient scapegoat. Certainly there is evidence that Malenkov, at least, supported a unified "bourgeois democratic" Germany https://soc.history.what-if.narkive...l-be-a-bourgeois-democratic-republic-malenkov and it is arguable that it was Malenkov's ouster in 1955, not Beria's arrest in 1953, which was the real death of the idea. As I noted in that post (quoting Robert Conquest) "A conference held under Communist auspices in Warsaw in February 1955 had proposed simultaneous withdrawal of occupation armies from Germany and of Soviet troops from Poland, the unification of Germany and free elections under the plan put forward by Eden at the Berlin Conference in January 1954 (and then rejected by Molotov), and urged that Germany should not enter any military coalition and her frontiers be guaranteed by the European states and the United States (*Trybuna Ludu*, February 9, 1955). Malenkov fell at this time, and no further mention of this conference's decisions was ever made."

Of course after Malenkov's downfall, he was added to Beria as would-be-betrayer-of-the-GDR by Khrushchev, who later told Walter Ulbricht: "Malenkov and Beria wanted to liquidate the GDR, but we fired one and shot the other..." https://books.google.com/books?id=2bEYCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA41 But if Kramer is right, *at the time* (i.e., before the Berlin Uprising) Khrushchev and the rest of the Soviet leaders also went along with the idea.

In the same way, we have to ask whether the other features of March-June 1953--the "New Course" in eastern Europe, the condemnation of "Russification" in the Union Republics, the sudden halt to Stalin-worship--were really distinctively *Beria* policies. Here I think Robert Conquest's arguments in *Power and Policy in the USSR* (pp. 220-222) are still interesting:

"If we consider the policies towards minorities of the Soviet Union and the Communist states of Eastern Europe in the period immediately following Stalin's death, it is only too easy to regard them as 'Beria policies'. That this is in a sense a true description seems undeniable. But it requires a certain amount of reservation.

"In the first place, it is inconceivable that policies and acts of policy could have been put through at this point by Beria alone, without the consent of a majority of the Party Praesidium. It may be that the motives for such consent fell short of enthusiastic support: indifference, pressure and even perhaps a desire to see the originator of the policies held to account for their failure, might have played a part in securing that consent. But on the whole it seems that the Praesidium felt the force of the arguments which motivated Beria's policy, even when they were not, perhaps, prepared to draw such radical conclusions as he.

"The removal of Melnikov for Russifying tendencies in the Ukraine cannot have been carried out without the approval of the Party Praesidium. The fact that, though he received minor posts after Beria's fall, he was never restored even to full membership of the Party Central Committee is an indication that the majority was unprepared to revert to the Russian nationalism which marked Stalin's last years, even though they may not have been prepared to go as for as Beria in the other direction....

"Similarly we may conclude that the new course in Hungary in 1953 was acceptable to the whole Praesidium. Imre Nagy states...that Rakosi attempted to bring it to a close on the pretext that it was Beria's policy and was taken to task for this by several members of the Praesidium, who urged a continuance of the new line (This was presumably at the consultation between Soviet and Hungarian leaders which took place in August 1953.) It may indeed be that the Party Praesidium was not as united on the point as it purported to be, and the effective repudiation of the Hungarian 'new course' which took place at the same time as Malenkov's fall may show that Khrushchev himself was among the doubters. Or he may have changed his mind. Or (for all the alternatives should be kept in mind in matters of this sort) it may have been part of a bargain made between him and more 'Stalinist' members of the Praesidium to secure their support against Malenkov.

"In any case, a majority of the Praesidium in July and August 1953 must have taken the position Nagy reports. And yet the fact that Rakosi believed that he could now repudiate the policy on the grounds that it was Beria's presumably indicates that he knew that Beria had in fact been making the running and putting the more extreme relaxation view in the matter, which is also in accord with the other evidence. A similar view can be taken of the East German situation. There the policy of relaxation was not abandoned after the rising of June 17. But the rising could be blamed on excesses in implementing it, and when Ulbricht removed the 'Rightist' elements later in the year the Politburo member in charge of the Security Police, Zaisser, was openly referred to as both a Right deviationist and an associate of Beria. This would tend both to confirm our view of Beria's line and to show that he disposed of a powerful apparatus for pressing it.

"A similar argument could be advanced in the matter of de-Stalinisation'. The absence of reference to Stalin in 1953 is remarkable, and though it seems to have been most complete in the period before the arrest of Beria it did not show much sign of revival for many months thereafter. (And here again it may be argued that the increase in favourable reference to Stalin which took place later was part of a political move by one faction to secure the support of old Stalinists.)..."

In short, I think we should not overstate the uniqueness of Beria's views in 1953. He could not have implemented them without the support of the rest of the Praesidium--even if they may have had more reservations about them than he had. And many of these views continued to be implemented after June 1953, at least until Malenkov's fall in 1955.
 
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I have no idea about details, but I imagine very marginalized rubber-stamp government and "communist" party, with all true power that would lie in the internal security machine (that would fear and strictly control the army, much smaller than army of the OTL USSR).

Soviet economy may be, very ironically, healthier. Depends how severe internal purges would be (bad for productivity stuff), but as I said, Beria was politically slightly less paranoid than Stalin.

A thing that came to my mind now is that I once watched a documentary about China and found something interesting: China (the country) has no army. The army is loyal solely to the Chinese communist party. This Beria could replace the entire red army with NKVD divisions and adopt a chain of command focused on the party itself, and appoint officers based not on their perspicacy, but on their loyalty to the party. Is that possible?
 
I summon the great think tank of the eastern bloc, the general secretary @fasquardon

So I am a think tankie now?

And general secretary of what?

Not sure I am flattered. ;-)

Beria is an interesting case. I'm really not sure what happens if he wins power. However, some observations:

1) He seems to have pushed the roll-back of the Gulag system after Stalin's death.

2) He seems to have genuinely held "pragmatist" views - insisting that the Soviet nuclear program must have the best people regardless of their politics and that they be given freedom to work without ideological supervision for example.

3) He seems to have been a genuinely good organizer.

4) He absolutely murdered and raped for fun. In a regime chock full of murdering fanatics, Beria still manages to stand out for his evil.

Also, I doubt Beria could have ended the Cold War, or even made it much less intense. At this point, the US is committed to opposing the Soviets.

fasquardon
 
So I am a think tankie now?

And general secretary of what?

Not sure I am flattered. ;-)

Beria is an interesting case. I'm really not sure what happens if he wins power. However, some observations:

1) He seems to have pushed the roll-back of the Gulag system after Stalin's death.

2) He seems to have genuinely held "pragmatist" views - insisting that the Soviet nuclear program must have the best people regardless of their politics and that they be given freedom to work without ideological supervision for example.

3) He seems to have been a genuinely good organizer.

4) He absolutely murdered and raped for fun. In a regime chock full of murdering fanatics, Beria still manages to stand out for his evil.

Also, I doubt Beria could have ended the Cold War, or even made it much less intense. At this point, the US is committed to opposing the Soviets.

fasquardon

I nominate you the general secretary of eastern european economic studies of althistory.com, congratulations.


Why? Because you are always the one to solve this discussions, who knows how things work. Now, now.

Now, based on what you said, this Soviet Union is going to be way more prosperous than the OTL soviet union, isn't? While the USA is going to try to supress it, as OTL, these soviets won't have to deal with the burden of occupying eastern europe and a civilian nuclear energy program can improve the standart of living. But what happens after Beria dies? Who could take power?
 
Beria might have actually ended the Cold War early, or at least greatly reduced it. IIRC he was in favor of allowing Germany to reunify, supported granting greater freedoms to the East Bloc states and the Baltics, and wanted better trade and diplomatic relations with the West.

He of all people? Source?
 
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