How Will Culture and Society Look in a Buddhist Medieval Europe?

[Hannibal The Bannable]

A unrealistic but possible POD would be that Trajan lives and continues his conquest of Parthia , securing Mesopotamia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and parts of Media leading to the collapse of the Parthians. Later on the Kushan Empire spreads Buddhism along the Caspian Sea and Iran , Eventually reaching the borders of Rome. From Mesopotamia , the number of Buddhists in the empire increases rapidly probably resulting in persecutions and such since Buddhism was staunchly against animal sacrifice. The Persecutions may help form a extremist identity or may lead to them relaxing their views. If Rome Weathers through the Third Century, An Alt-Constantine may come around and convert to Buddhism. Roman Buddhism would take on a more organizational role and will adopt pagan customs including their gods and would be closer to Mahayana Buddhism(the one practiced in East Asia). If Alt-Julian fails as in OTL then Buddhism would become the predominant religion of the Old World unless Persia manages to regain its power and enforces Zoroastrianism .

Buddhism would spread to the rest of Europe and as a result take Roman gods with it to an extent. Thor is Hercules and is the protector of Buddha and other Bodhisattvas and stuff like that. It may split into radically different sects and some may a take a more pagan form like Odin being a Bodhisattva who became a god after achieving Nirvana. This might be considered heretical by some, both Buddhists and Pagans. The "Buddhist Church" would never be as strong as the Catholic Church but would be stronger than old pagan offices. The Buddhists likely wont persecute other religions early on but would might eventually take upon a extreme shape and solidify itself into organized denominations with some level of communion . Animal Sacrifice and Gladiators may fade away after some time and be banned only after it is practically dead.

Buddhism was never as organized as I mentioned and was way less zealous In order for Buddhism to stay a organized religion which greatly affects people's lives and not just fade away like it did in India ,some of the changes I mentioned are required.

P.S: Tibetan Buddhism is the most organized version of Buddhism so I was partially wrong. Also reincarnation may play a important part in Court Politics and the clergy in some places may have significant power in choosing the King or Emperor and the 'Buddhist Patriarch' if he exists will probably be elected by the Clergy on the basis of reincarnation unless the patriarch was believed to have achieved Nirvana leading to disputes about his succession

 

[Brahman]

If Buddhism did arrive in Europe/Mediterranean, there is a good chance that the Hellenic religions there get reinvigorated due to Integration and Adaptability of Buddhism. Maybe Buddha and Buddhist principles exist, but Greco-Roman Religions revive and experience a golden age themselves

 

[Socrates]

I mean it was already pretty irrelevant by the time Islam came along, Buddhism in the subcontinent was hardly flourishing

This is just incorrect. Yes, Indian Buddhism was getting assimilated back into Vaishnavism but it was still a huge part of North India culture at the time. The Northern university tradition was also the basis for Tibetan Buddhism. But what I was mainly talking about were the universities as a repository of learning. They had huge libraries of books that were burned by the Muslims, and they were the pioneer in the world of developing systems of logic and epistemology. Far superior in intellectual sophistication than the teachings of Mohammed yet completely destroyed. A huge loss to humanity.

 

[Socrates]

- less nuns (Buddhist nuns seems rarer than Christian)
- more icons and more conflict with Iconoclastic religion
- more pagan deity survival
- less hierarchical Church (Buddhist seems more prone to break into sect)

The reason for fewer nuns in Buddhism is because there needed to be a direct line of transmission back to the Buddha for both monks and nuns. Unfortunately sexism under one Sri Lanka ruler ended the nunneries and therefore those transmission lines could not be reestablished. This was in the Theravada tradition which was the main source of monasticism.

 

[Otto Kretschmer]

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How do you guys think Buddhism in Europe might look like? Will it constitute the 4th branch of Buddhism alongside Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana?

Just due to sheer geographic distance there will be little contact between European Buddhism and Buddhism in Southeast Asia/East Asia

 

[Brahman]

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How do you guys think Buddhism in Europe might look like? Will it constitute the 4th branch of Buddhism alongside Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana?

Just due to sheer geographic distance there will be little contact between European Buddhism and Buddhism in Southeast Asia/East Asia

we already have a perfect example in form of Indo Greeks and Greco Bactrians. If Buddhism did spread to Europe, It would still by and large be European in nature, with Buddhism being integrated into the religions and legends of Countries, example like Romulus and Remus meeting Buddha, and They would adopt some Sanskrit titles but not too much. Meditation would be emphasized a lot more. Statues of Buddha along with Roman, Greek, Egyptian and even Jewish Gods and Prophets would be a common place

 

[herkles]

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How do you guys think Buddhism in Europe might look like? Will it constitute the 4th branch of Buddhism alongside Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana?

Just due to sheer geographic distance there will be little contact between European Buddhism and Buddhism in Southeast Asia/East Asia

The thing to keep in mind is that at the time of Buddhism going to the indo greeks was still very much in the early schools of Buddhism. There were roughly 20 different schools of thought of Buddhism, depending on how you count them. Theravada is only one of the early schools, beyond them you have Sarvastivada, Mahāsāṃghika, Pudgalavada, Dharmaguptaka, Caitika, Lokottaravāda just to name some of them. So basically with a PoD that far back its entirely possible that instead of Theravada, one of these early schools wins out, alterntivaly more of them survive and develop into their own traditions

 

[Practical Lobster]

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How do you guys think Buddhism in Europe might look like? Will it constitute the 4th branch of Buddhism alongside Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana?

Just due to sheer geographic distance there will be little contact between European Buddhism and Buddhism in Southeast Asia/East Asia

I don't know about little contact, there was a lively Indian Ocean trade throughout the whole period, and in this timeline there is going to be more of an impetus to maintain an ongoing religious and cultural dialogue between East and West. Certainly there is no reason sailors wouldn't be routinely making the voyage and more than a few religious pilgrims could do so. Yes, it will be divergent, but it needn't be that divergent.

was way less zealous

How do we objectively measure zeal? Do we have any evidence that "less zeal" is an inherent trait of Buddhism, in all its varied incarnations?

Buddhism to stay a organized religion which greatly affects people's lives and not just fade away like it did in India

Not entirely fair to say Buddhism "faded away" in India - as others have remarked in this very thread, that's like saying somebody stumbled off a cliff after kicking them towards the edge.

This thread - not aiming at anyone in particular here - seems to have accumulated a lot of generalities, including the particularly baffling "Buddhists won't preserve classical learning" (as if anyone did a particularly good job of that historically speaking).

Major differences would be how Buddhism interacts with the various European paganisms- there probably wouldn't be outright replacement in all cases, but i wouldn't assume they'd just smoothly slide in. I have a feeling people like Jupiter and Isis would only feature in Buddhist works in the same way that Vishnu and Shiva do- gods who suffer humiliating defeats to Buddhist rival deities until they are reborn and become Buddhists themselves. They're just too powerful in the claims they make for themselves for an easy submission to Buddhist doctrine.

This feels pretty plausible, although the major cults like Sol and Isis might exist in parallel for quite some time as long as they could shrink their roles acceptably. Certainly Buddhism in East Asia was able to coexist with local deities. But I agree that major "pagan" cults that provide an entire, comprehensive worldview and ideology would definitely be less welcome as time progressed.

It'd also be really cool to see Buddhism bring with it a tradition of Sanskrit philosophy so that the Indic and Mediterranean worlds become more like a joint religious continuum- that way the Stoics can link up with Buddhisms indian rivals who much more closely mirror their own views.

This is the sort of thing I'd love to see if someone wrote a timeline about this.

 

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

Isn't that backwards? The biggest obstacle to
Buddhism in Europe is a successful Christian Church, and Buddhism predates it by centuries.

Syncretism is a thing, isn't that why Christmas is in December?

( Therevāda doctrines get syncreted into Orthodox Christianity, the pāramitā become Cardinal Virtues, etc.)

 

[H.Flashman(VC)]

I feel like they'd be well received by epicureans, with whom they share a lot more philosophical and organisational traits than groups like the Stoics, who would probably put up stiff resistance and hold out as a distinct philosophical tradition. It'd also be really cool to see Buddhism bring with it a tradition of Sanskrit philosophy so that the Indic and Mediterranean

Someone like Adrian Kuzminski argues that this more or less already happened in OTL.

 

[Otto Kretschmer]

The thing to keep in mind is that at the time of Buddhism going to the indo greeks was still very much in the early schools of Buddhism. There were roughly 20 different schools of thought of Buddhism, depending on how you count them. Theravada is only one of the early schools, beyond them you have Sarvastivada, Mahāsāṃghika, Pudgalavada, Dharmaguptaka, Caitika, Lokottaravāda just to name some of them. So basically with a PoD that far back its entirely possible that instead of Theravada, one of these early schools wins out, alterntivaly more of them survive and develop into their own traditions

Buddhist schools in Tibet and China are already distinct from original schools. European schools of Buddhism will be separated by an even greater geographic distance

 

[Damian0358]

Major differences would be how Buddhism interacts with the various European paganisms- there probably wouldn't be outright replacement in all cases, but i wouldn't assume they'd just smoothly slide in. I have a feeling people like Jupiter and Isis would only feature in Buddhist works in the same way that Vishnu and Shiva do- gods who suffer humiliating defeats to Buddhist rival deities until they are reborn and become Buddhists themselves. They're just too powerful in the claims they make for themselves for an easy submission to Buddhist doctrine.

More minor figures would presumably be more easily incorporated.

I feel like they'd be well received by epicureans, with whom they share a lot more philosophical and organisational traits than groups like the Stoics, who would probably put up stiff resistance and hold out as a distinct philosophical tradition. It'd also be really cool to see Buddhism bring with it a tradition of Sanskrit philosophy so that the Indic and Mediterranean worlds become more like a joint religious continuum- that way the Stoics can link up with Buddhisms indian rivals who much more closely mirror their own views.

I'm reminded of how Wikipedia's article on Metrodorus of Lampsacus implied that Epicurus would've appointed him his successor had he survived him, which prompted me to make a thread asking what would've happened had he did, especially if he somehow got mixed up with those missionaries speaking of 'Boutta'.

 

[TimTurner]

Isn't that backwards? The biggest obstacle to Buddhism in Europe is a successful Christian Church, and Buddhism predates it by centuries. The earlier the better. You could easily have notable Buddhist communities in the Eastern Mediterranean before Constantine, never mind Justinian.

My understanding was that it would take time for Buddhism to spread west.

 

[Hannibal The Bannable]

Syncretism is a thing, isn't that why Christmas is in December?

( Therevāda doctrines get syncreted into Orthodox Christianity, the pāramitā become Cardinal Virtues, etc.)

Orthodox Christianity was strongly opposed to any type of syncretisation and any proposals to syncretise with Buddhism would be dismissed as heretical , especially when the church considered semantics a good enough reason for excommunication. The Example you mentioned might be used in distant places which are primarily Buddhist to convert them to Christianity , but it wont be accepted in the Eastern Roman Empire where a specific form of Christianity is already predominant and is the state religion.

P.S: A POD before Constantine the Great may result in something similar to Manichaeism rising up in the Roman Empire. OTL Manichaeism might be considered a hybrid of Zoroastrianism and Christianity combined with some Buddhist teachings along with Mani's own teachings.

 

[Socrates]

Orthodox Christianity was strongly opposed to any type of syncretisation and any proposals to syncretise with Buddhism would be dismissed as heretical , especially when the church considered semantics a good enough reason for excommunication. The Example you mentioned might be used in distant places which are primarily Buddhist to convert them to Christianity , but it wont be accepted in the Eastern Roman Empire where a specific form of Christianity is already predominant and is the state religion.

P.S: A POD before Constantine the Great may result in something similar to Manichaeism rising up in the Roman Empire. OTL Manichaeism might be considered a hybrid of Zoroastrianism and Christianity combined with some Buddhist teachings along with Mani's own teachings.

Tell that to Orthodox saints Barlaam and Josaphat!

 

[Yama951]

I'm imagining the POD is at least the Greek Bactrian kingdom, given how, from my cursory readings of the Bactrians, applied their Hellnic aesthetics to Buddhism into making the first statues of the Buddha instead of carvings of the Bodhi tree. I recall one Bactrian statue having Hercules protecting the Buddha as he meditates under the Bodhi tree, which gives a good example on how it could have syncretized with the Mediterranean pagan faiths.

I imagine a Europe that got a thriving Buddhist paradigm would be less "destroy the pagans" and more "add the Buddha in the local pantheon with their own take". After all, Chinese folk religion and Shinto didn't get squished when Buddhism arrived but integrated into the local faiths.

Might end up causing a strange twist where Roman syncretism went with "They also follow the Buddha so they're also good Romans" instead of "This Odin deity they worship is another name for Mercury"

 

[Otto Kretschmer]

I think there is another interesting consequence

Buddhist Europe means better relations with India snd China and also earlier ones. I can see things like Hindu numerals and 0 being introduced to Europe earlier

 

[Brahman]

I'm imagining the POD is at least the Greek Bactrian kingdom, given how, from my cursory readings of the Bactrians, applied their Hellnic aesthetics to Buddhism into making the first statues of the Buddha instead of carvings of the Bodhi tree. I recall one Bactrian statue having Hercules protecting the Buddha as he meditates under the Bodhi tree, which gives a good example on how it could have syncretized with the Mediterranean pagan faiths.

I imagine a Europe that got a thriving Buddhist paradigm would be less "destroy the pagans" and more "add the Buddha in the local pantheon with their own take". After all, Chinese folk religion and Shinto didn't get squished when Buddhism arrived but integrated into the local faiths.

Might end up causing a strange twist where Roman syncretism went with "They also follow the Buddha so they're also good Romans" instead of "This Odin deity they worship is another name for Mercury"

I would love to imagine a Story in which Buddha Interacts with Circe trying to seduce him, or Him and Hera, Where he advices Hera to divorce Zeus as he is such a Philander

 

[Yama951]

I would love to imagine a Story in which Buddha Interacts with Circe trying to seduce him, or Him and Hera, Where he advices Hera to divorce Zeus as he is such a Philander

I'm imagining an ITTL OSP video about Buddhism and all the various takes of Buddhism and the Buddha in the context of various mythological pantheons. Like, how does Norse-Buddhism work? Let alone wanking it to spread to the Americas and have Aztec-Buddhism...

 

[Brahman]

I'm imagining an ITTL OSP video about Buddhism and all the various takes of Buddhism and the Buddha in the context of various mythological pantheons. Like, how does Norse-Buddhism work? Let alone wanking it to spread to the Americas and have Aztec-Buddhism...

Buddha would be the the link between the various religion, Infact it would not be a stretch to say that there is a Proto World religion with Buddha as Central figure and all other religions and gods revolving around it

Mediterranean, Indian and Chinese worlds would seem much more closer due to Buddha being comkon in all their religions and Culture