How well would Nazi-trained Arab forces do against the IDF

Or Kursk in 1943 where the Germans have absolute control of the air?

I recall reading somewhere that the Luftwaffe was supposed to have been used in a counterbattery role but was hindered by too many Soviet fighters around.


It sure does look like to me that we do a whole lot of blaming the little guy (Arabs in this case) when we really have a handful of stupid decisions by a few Arab leaders.

Often the arab rank and file was less skilled than its enemies, though poor leadership was the worst issue.
 
I would call both the BEF and French army of 1940 as fully trained with a functional command structure. Germans did pretty well in that year.

I would call the Americans defending at the Battle of the Bulge as fully trained with functional command structure. Germans did fine until USA got more men to the area and the weather cleared allowing air support.

...

In the first case the key and spectacular German successes were vs Series B reserve units. The badly trained and led 55th & 71st Division Inf at Sedan. The 61st near Givet are two examples. Similarly the half mobilized and undertrained Belgian reserve formations along the Albert Canal. The failure of the badly trained artillery commander & his staff or the French X Corps artillery is another good example. Where the Germans ran up against fully trained French or British formations, such as in the Gembloux Gap they were often turned back. & the commad 'structure' of the French as fully functional is debatable.

In the second case the German attacks were successful vs the extremely Green and indifferently trained 106th ID & the exhausted 4th ID. Both of those were occupying less than optimal defensive positions. When combating veteran units like the 1st ID & others the 'superiority' of German methods was a lot less evident.

Quite possibly. I note, though, that Soviet airmen were condescending toward EAF pilots, until they faced the Israelis themselves around July 1970, and lost five MIGs for no Israeli losses. The Egyptians could scarcely conceal their delight.

I was thinking in terms of the ground forces, the infantry & to a lesser extent artillery. Part of my take is based on observation & reports by the US forces during the Lebanon crisis in the 1980s, part on other armies reports I've seen fragments of, & part on descriptions of the actions they fought.
 
I don't think you can easily apply European style training and discipline to Arab armies. Or at least, recent history seems to suggest not.
The Arab Legion seem to have done okay, although even they started to run into problems with leadership when they started expanding. IIRC Glubb was always somewhat sceptical about expanding too fast or adding too many 'technical' units like artillery as it required the recruiting of more educated 'town' Arabs that he felt brought politics into the organisation.


Why Arabs Lose Wars,
Norvell B. De Atkine said:
When they had an influence on certain Arab military establishments, the Soviets reinforced their clients' cultural traits far more than, in more recent years, Americans were able to. Like the Arabs', the Soviets' military culture was driven by political fears bordering on paranoia. The steps taken to control the sources (real or imagined) of these fears, such as a rigidly centralized command structure, were readily understood by Arab political and military elites. The Arabs, too, felt an affinity for the Soviet officer class's contempt for ordinary soldiers and the Soviet military hierarchy's distrust of a well-developed, well-appreciated, well-rewarded NCO corps.
In a similar vein there's Kenneth M. Pollack's book Arabs at War: Military Effectiveness, 1948-1991. I haven't read it but the reviews, both on Amazon and elsewhere, appear to be decent.


You do after all seem to have a bit of a reputation.
Says who? So far it seems to be just you and the other person CalBear mentioned, hardly what I'd call having 'a bit of a reputation'. If anything I would suggest that their general reputation on the forums was one of being a good writer that was knowledgeable and fair.


Which at this point is more BAE's fault than anyone else's.
How does that follow? IIRC they only bought the company involved with the Bradley well after the design process and production run had finished, past a certain point there's only so much you can do.


It's a battle taxi, it needs armor, engines, and a big space inside for the troops to sit, that's basically it.
No, it's not, it's an Infantry Fighting Vehicle (IFV) so the turret and anti-armour missiles are very much appropriate. However much you might want it to be an Armoured Personnel Carrier (APC) that doesn't make it so, or make it 'junk' because it isn't one.
 
The Arab Legion seem to have done okay,

It fought very well at Latrun and elsewhere.


although even they started to run into problems with leadership when they started expanding.

The real deterioration came after British officers were replaced with arab ones.

In a similar vein there's Kenneth M. Pollack's book Arabs at War: Military Effectiveness, 1948-1991. I haven't read it but the reviews, both on Amazon and elsewhere, appear to be decent.

I've had it since it first came out around 2003. A great read, though I did notice at least one factual error.
 
Go to ConSimWorld & check the PanzerBlitz/Panzer/Leader/AIW, or the AIW discussion forums. Or look in the AIW section on Boardgame Geek. A lot of online stuff posted there. Get back to me if you cant find it.
there used to be a lot of variant boards and counters you could buy online for the games (things that the gamers were screaming for back in the 70s and 80s, when the games were still in print and popular)… not sure about nowadays...
 
there used to be a lot of variant boards and counters you could buy online for the games (things that the gamers were screaming for back in the 70s and 80s, when the games were still in print and popular)… not sure about nowadays...

That & a lot of new stuff is available. I am familiar with the ConSimWorld material, but there are other groups doing similar work whom i am barely acquainted with.

The thing Im happiest to see are many new maps. Back in the 1970s the publisher could have sold expansion maps the way Matel sold midget bikinis for Barbie. A sales opportunity missed by a mile. Now you can down load several dozen to your printer from several sources. Most are the same style of generic maps as the original, but there are several historical maps. Back when I had time I drafted several such myself, tho they are still unedited and unpublished.
 
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That & a lot of new stuff is available. I am familiar with the ConSimWorld material, but there are other groups doing similar work whom i am barely acquainted with.

The thing Im happiest to see are many new maps. Back in the 1970s the publisher could have sold expansion maps the way Matel sold midget bikinis for Barbie. A sales opportunity missed by a mile. Now you can down load several dozen to your printer from several sources. Most are the same style of generic maps as the original, but there are several historical maps. Back when I had time I drafted several such myself, tho they are still unedited and unpublished.
back in the day, I had PB/PL/AIW, and every variant I could find for them... the official ones from AH itself (PB 1941, PL 1940, Paraleader, AIW: Lebanon), and a bunch of unofficial variant artillery and AFV counters made by 'some guy' back in the 80s...
 
back in the day, I had PB/PL/AIW, and every variant I could find for them... the official ones from AH itself (PB 1941, PL 1940, Paraleader, AIW: Lebanon), and a bunch of unofficial variant artillery and AFV counters made by 'some guy' back in the 80s...

You got rid of all that? I still have most of it on the shelf. Thought last year I'd get it back on the table & complete some projects, but surgery & business intervened again.
 
Yeah, an expanded Legion with British officers are pretty much my go-to when trying to have Jordan do better in 1948 and 1967.

Jordan had British officers in '48. Long before '67 it had become politically problematic to keep them.
Btw I remember PB, but haven't played it in ages.
 
In the first case the key and spectacular German successes were vs Series B reserve units. The badly trained and led 55th & 71st Division Inf at Sedan. The 61st near Givet are two examples. Similarly the half mobilized and undertrained Belgian reserve formations along the Albert Canal. The failure of the badly trained artillery commander & his staff or the French X Corps artillery is another good example. Where the Germans ran up against fully trained French or British formations, such as in the Gembloux Gap they were often turned back. & the commad 'structure' of the French as fully functional is debatable.

In the second case the German attacks were successful vs the extremely Green and indifferently trained 106th ID & the exhausted 4th ID. Both of those were occupying less than optimal defensive positions. When combating veteran units like the 1st ID & others the 'superiority' of German methods was a lot less evident.



I was thinking in terms of the ground forces, the infantry & to a lesser extent artillery. Part of my take is based on observation & reports by the US forces during the Lebanon crisis in the 1980s, part on other armies reports I've seen fragments of, & part on descriptions of the actions they fought.

Not that I disagree entirely with your thinking, but I think German methods were so successful to due their air superiority and highly effective use of close air support, When they lost this later in the war they ran into problems. The allies overall methods of fighting early in the war were also flawed. French forces won a lot of tactical victories but failed to utilize their armored units properly.
 
You got rid of all that? I still have most of it on the shelf. Thought last year I'd get it back on the table & complete some projects, but surgery & business intervened again.
I didn't throw them out. Problem was, I got all that stuff in my college years, and once I got out and started working, I could never find any other board gamers in the little towns I lived in. So I basically dragged them around with me every time I moved. Several years ago, a former AH.COM member, MacCauley, and I got into a conversation about the whole thing, turned out he was still an active PB/PL/AIW player. I offered to send him my whole collection of it, figured it was better to give it to someone who still played rather than let them rot on my shelf...
 
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