How to sink the Rodney ...

How long did it take to the Japanese to convert those shells into bombs and could the Germans do something similar?
 
"The thing is there's a huge difference between the aircraft, tactics and weapons that sunk Force Z (as well as the dumb admirals decision to proceed without air cover) and the forces the Germans had in 1940."

I agree sharlin, that's why I wondered if a sub or mine is more likely to be successful than all the discussions about LW attacks?

"Both of these options are realistic and within the realms of the LW capabilities, am I right?"

Why does the LW have to be involved at all? From what I understand most seamines laid by the Germans up to at least 1941 were positioned by destroyers, E-boats and subs. I don't have a reference sorry. I know that most of the thread has focused on the Luftwaffe's capabilities but the OP just asks about sinking the Rodney. Much more damage was done by mines and subs to Allied shipping than the LW could ever hope to achieve, I still think that's where the main threat to Rodney would come as well.

"mines could be laid in the approaches to the mooring that would take a day or two to clear"

That's what I would do in the Germans' place. Or mine coastal waters where RN vessels were likely to transit. I don't think the OP said anything about deliberately targeting solely Rodney, it may just be that's the BB that hits a mine or gets torpedoed. Mines weren't always successfully cleared either. In war many mistakes occur.
 
Everything because thats what would happen if Spain joined the Axis.

And i'm still basically reading this as 'Lets kill British military personnel! Why? Because'.

I propose a new thread.

How to Sink the Bisma...oh...wait


the thread was how to sink the rodney, not consequences of spanish participation in the war

my scenario was plausible for the op

spain was a signer to the anti commitern pact and a nominal ally of the axis, their decision not to join the fighting would be the pod; and then the germans conceiving a surprise blitz raid on force H days or even weeks before their ground assault on gibraltar to try to sink them at anchor (such an idea would resonate with Hitler who like bold attacks)
 
There basically is no point at all for Spain to allow German armed forces in, for a purpose not benefitting their own. If German forces enter the state of Spain, Spain will simply become an ally of the Allies, siding with the UK and not the opposite. Spain wanted simply to be left alone to rebuild the wrecked state after the bloody Civil War. Anyone frustrating this would be considered an enemy, Fascist, or no fascist alike. Sympathy for Fascism was one thing. Fighting alongside them a completely different one.

So basically the idea is flawed and based on too many what if's to be of any use. A more logical assumption would have been a less complex approach, involving much less politically depending issues, with weapons and weapon carriers that could be deployed without too many problems. Suibmarines were the most logical to be used, though in 1940 the Kkriegsmarine had only a few operational, which were also needed for other more urgent missions. Only after 1941, the BdU could boost this number in more serious quantity.


The reasons why spain didn't fight are known. The concept in the OP is to provide an alternate history where Rodney could be sunk. Spain joining the axis isn't ASB, they were allied and Franco really did consider it... he could change his mind looking for the glory of bringing gibraltar back to spain, or the axis could support a coup by the more radical elements in the falange who want to join the war or anything else that drags spain into the fighting; either way it's plausible turn from OTL
 
So let me get this straight - you are suggesting that the Luftwaffe attack HMS Rodney from airfields well within the range of Rodney's main guns? In what possible universe is that going to end well for the LW?

unless rodney's guns could shoot through the rock, she would have to steam out a bit so her elevations could clear it, and she wouldn't know that the birds were coming from san rourqe until the second raid when the same tail numbers would be back so quickly; and hanging around to conduct a fire mission when she has already been bombed twice (and is probably having to still defend herself as the 2nd raid would end up staging out over an hour or two as machines from places farther away would take longer to get there) is more or less crazy... winny and the admiralty's orders would be more along the lines of BUG OUT!!!!! and to get out of stuka range as rapidly as possible (perhaps they shell and lay waste to the spanish fleet at cadiz on the way out, but either way, they aren't hanging out in the straits)
 
The reasons why spain didn't fight are known. The concept in the OP is to provide an alternate history where Rodney could be sunk. Spain joining the axis isn't ASB, they were allied and Franco really did consider it... he could change his mind looking for the glory of bringing gibraltar back to spain, or the axis could support a coup by the more radical elements in the falange who want to join the war or anything else that drags spain into the fighting; either way it's plausible turn from OTL


That makes no sense, as Spain would simply not allow Germany to drag her into a war it was not willing to fight. Franco was indeed sympathetic to Germany, but not a fool. He had more important things in Spain itself to do and was not willing to let his newly won power slip away in someone else's war.

By the way, the sinking of a ship was not necessarily to be an act of war, as other forces might also be reponsible for it. A simple error in navigation can do the job, for no effort of the opponents military power getting involved. (HMS Effingham was lost by stranding in the Norwegian campaign, while other ships were lost in peacetime in this way.)

Other German efforts to do so would be limmitted to the kriegsmarine primarily, as only a submarine would be capable of reaching the battleship and deliver a weapon capable of sinking her, at least theoretically. (Can be both a mine, or a torpedo.) Bombs simply do not sink ships, as they were too small and the delivering platform too illequipped to deliver it precisely where it would do most damage, besides being a thing of later waryears. Only after the large Armor Piercing bombs were developped and more advanced targetting was created, bombs became more potent. You will therefore need to wait untill somewhere in 1941 to see the first real armorpiercing bombs becomming available in Germany.
 
I am at work so I don't have my references at hand, but the Germans developed Air-to-Surface guided missiles (used to sink an Italian battleship and heavily damage a number of allied cruisers) and guided bombs.
These could have inflicted major damage on the Rodney's.
 
I am at work so I don't have my references at hand, but the Germans developed Air-to-Surface guided missiles (used to sink an Italian battleship and heavily damage a number of allied cruisers) and guided bombs.
These could have inflicted major damage on the Rodney's.

In 1943 not 1940.
 
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