... or the Nelson.
Does the Luftwaffe possess a weapon that can sink or kill the Rodney in late 1940?
Does the Luftwaffe possess a weapon that can sink or kill the Rodney in late 1940?
How to sink the Rodney ...
- Thread starter Ian Hathaway
- Start date
In 1940 the Luftwaffe lacked the shipattacking strength to sink a well designed BB at sea. Only the torpedo carrying floatplanes of the He-115 type could inflict fatal damage in theory, but there simply were too few of these in service at that time. Also note that the British usually protected their BB's at sea in range of the own airforces, with aircraft, so a well coordinated torpedostrike would be difficult to do in these circumstances. (at that time the FAA and RAF had several aircraft used as fighters, unable to engage their Luftwaffe equals, but adequate enough to hunt down slow floatplanes. (These were the Blackburn Skua, Blackburn Rock and Bristol Blenheim fighter variant.)
Note that the HMS Rodney had 6.5 inch deckarmor, the thickest in the world ever, excluding Yamato. No 1940 Luftwaffe ordonance was able to breach this at the time.
Lets modify this slightly then ... if the attack were to take place when the ship is moored rather than in the open sea. Provide an escort for the He115 (I believe there were 20 or more available in Norway at the time) and other attack bombers would it be plausible for there to be at least one torpedo strike?
Alternatively, if the aim was just to put the Rodney or Nelson out of action temporarily is it possible for a damaged bridge to disable the ship for a week or two?
We are talking 1940's Britain ... the harbour defences are pretty poor.
The only Luftwaffe aircraft with the range to get near Scapa Flow, the most logical anchorage for the Homefleet, was the Ju-88 bomber. No fighteraircraft of the 1940 period of the Luftwaffe (or any other airforce then) had sufficient range to get so far. More importantly was that at Kirkwall, Orkney's, the RAF had stationed CAP fighters (Spitfires) which were a class on their own, having no equals in the Luftwaffe capable of reaching them. It is not difficult to see what Spitfires can do with Ju-88's.
You will need to wait until early 1941, when the Luftwaffe delivered some Fw200 Condors for Naval search and BdU coordindination, te get aircraft with sufficient range to reach the Scapa Flow base, but even the lumbering former airliners were no match for state of the art fighters.
The best sort of action against the BB in 1940 would have been either mines, or submarines. (note that HMS Nelson, the sister of Rodney, was badly damaged by a magnetic mine in 1940.)
The information I have says different ... however I'm not necessarily suggesting Scapa as the target as this is a hypothetical question.
I also can't find any record of Spitfires being stationed at Kirkwall during the later part of 1940, the closest I have is No. 232 (Hurricanes) Squadron at Sumburgh and No. 3 (Hurricanes) Squadron at Wick till 6th September. But I will quite happily be corrected on those.
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sharlin
Banned
The big problem is ordinance, the germans didn't have a bomb big enough to do more than make a mess of the upper works of a Cherry Tree, certinally nothing that could punch through the armoured deck to get at the vitals.
And even if they were able to get in range you're still talking about mostly undefended bombers going against Hurricanes/Spitfires.
And even if they were able to get in range you're still talking about mostly undefended bombers going against Hurricanes/Spitfires.
The range of the Ju-87 is exaggerated, as the plane was not desinged for long range flight in the first place. (From coastal airfields in France, near the Channal, it could just reach the English coastal radarbases, if it was intended to be returning to its homebase in one piece!!) Ju-87, with normal ordonance, barely had a range of 100 miles. It was a frontline battlefieldsupport aircraft, not a strategic bomber. If fitted with external fueltanks, the bombload was nil, as the droptank was under the fuselage, replacing the bomb.
Bf-110 and Bf-109 only started to use external droptanks in 1941 (after the BoB), not before. Also the Ju-52 was not logical to use as it was a transport, not a bomber.
This will still limmited the use of the Luftwaffe in 1940 to just the Ju-88, the only landbased bomber with the necessary range besides the floatplane He-115. The fast Ju-88 could be used as makeshift fighter, though very lightly armed, or a bomber, while the He-115 was carrying torpedoes. Both were extremely vulnerable to enemy fighters though, as the 1940 period aircraft often had no protection yet and the single engined RAF and FAA fighters were always more agile and more heavily armed. (even a Blackburn Skua, or Rock, as well as the Bristol Belheim fighter variant, had four .303 mg's able to be deployed at any time and the eight gun Hurricane and Spitfire are well known.)
The Luftwaffe had to wait until 1941, until purposely designed Armor Piercing bombs were in use, as the Germans never actually had thought of using the Luftwaffe against capital ships in their planning before the war. Other bombs were simply not potent enough to do the job before 1941.
Bf-110 and Bf-109 only started to use external droptanks in 1941 (after the BoB), not before. Also the Ju-52 was not logical to use as it was a transport, not a bomber.
This will still limmited the use of the Luftwaffe in 1940 to just the Ju-88, the only landbased bomber with the necessary range besides the floatplane He-115. The fast Ju-88 could be used as makeshift fighter, though very lightly armed, or a bomber, while the He-115 was carrying torpedoes. Both were extremely vulnerable to enemy fighters though, as the 1940 period aircraft often had no protection yet and the single engined RAF and FAA fighters were always more agile and more heavily armed. (even a Blackburn Skua, or Rock, as well as the Bristol Belheim fighter variant, had four .303 mg's able to be deployed at any time and the eight gun Hurricane and Spitfire are well known.)
The Luftwaffe had to wait until 1941, until purposely designed Armor Piercing bombs were in use, as the Germans never actually had thought of using the Luftwaffe against capital ships in their planning before the war. Other bombs were simply not potent enough to do the job before 1941.
The map shown is not my creation but taken from a document produced by the war office. I agree the Ju87 would be crazy to use and that the drop tank on the Bf109 not used until 1941. However the Bf110 drop tank was used on 15th August 1940 in the Luftwaffe's ill fated attack on the North East of England.
They at least included radar and flak, and the radar and flak people talking to each other, so the attacks won't replicate the results of Taranto or PH.
sharlin
Banned
Yet the 110 could not carry a bomb load enough to do more than damage upper works and dent the deck. In reality for the Luftwaffe to have a decent crack at sinking or at least mission killing the Rodders you're going to need to her and her escorts to plod obligingly close to German occupied europe or sail up and down the channel whilst the RAF are all off having a cup of tea and not bothering to escort them. Then its a case of hitting her with enough HE bombs to cause serious fires.
Believe me I'm not suggesting any attack by the LW would be treated as a knockout blow ... but would like to know what if any damage could be done to the Rodney (or Nelson).
But the 110 could provide some minor escort duties ... not in the same league as the 109 but it still had some powerful armament.
sharlin
Banned
And it was shown how it performed against a real fighter in the BoB and when they ran into Spitfires/Hurricanes over France. Yes its a well armed beasty thats for sure, but it could have a GAU-8 in the nose and be utterly useless if it can't keep a target in its sights or gets bounced and can't shake a lighter fighter from its ass.
And yet it still accounted for 13% of all fighters lost by fighter command ...
Actually yes when used as a fighter / bomber as it quite often was in southern England and I'm assuming the drop tanks would be dropped prior to engaging in combat.
So the raid would consist of He115 Torpedo bombers, Ju88 low level and shallow dive bombers, He111 to provide some high level cover and Bf110 to provide escort.
The Norway campaign, which is what is the subject, was in april 1940, not august. So it still would be too little too late to be of any influence.