How to properly turbo-supercharge the P-39 Airacobra.

I think the P-39 could have benefited from the installation of a turbo-supercharger if a few changes to the airplanes' design had been implemented. There was adequate room to the rear of the engine if space had been freed up by getting rid of useless accessories like landing flares, tool kit and lastly the first aid kit which should be in the pilots' bail out package.

To fit a P-38 size turbo-supercharger in the P-39's rear fuselage that is not as bulky and draggy as Bells' first attempt will necessitate a more compact method of charge cooling. Why not liquid cool the hot compressed air from the turbo-supercharger? In all the USAAF airplanes including bombers and fighters flown in WW2 that used turbo-superchargers (TSC) charge temperature control was done by directing the compressed air from the TSC through a heat exchanger that was cooled by outside air being ducted to the heat exchanger and than the cooled down air was ducted to the carburetors.

This system was simple, adequate and robust but bulky because of all the ducting that was used. Not a big drawback for bombers or a spacious airplane like the P-47. It was a difficulty for a leaner airplane like the P-38 which could have benefited from my suggested innovations and an absolute necessity for a smaller plane like the P-39 especially in view of the botch job Bell Aircraft did in trying to install a TSC in the P-39 albeit they were hampered by existing Air Corps requirements for outdated ideas like landing flares and toolkits using up valuable space.

To reduce the bulky OTL intercooler installation have the ducting run from the TSC directly to the carburetors. In that ducting just before its connection to the carbs is placed a heat exchanger that is connected by tubing to a small radiator. A liquid (namely Glycol and water) system is used for removing excess heat from the TSC compressed air.

The small radiator would be located on the inside skin of the fuselage and would be exposed to the slipstream through a forward facing opening and rearward adjustable door. This and a variable pump (electric, mechanical, hydraulic?) would permit with well designed thermostats a precise control of the charge temperature. I think the P-38 would have benefited from a similar system.

Does this arrangement sound familiar? It is very similar to the method used in the two stage mechanically supercharged Merlin engines to control the charge temperature in the later Spitfire versions and the Mustangs as well. Regardless of how the compressor is driven the compressed air has to be within the temperature limits to ensure reliable engine performance.

Now since we have been able to fit a properly working turbo-supercharger into the P-39 giving it a much improved high altitude performance how else can we improve the Bell Airacobra?

First off remove the .30 guns from the wings so as to add extra fuel tankage thereby increasing the internal fuel capacity and thus overall range of the P-39.

Because the turbo-supercharger is installed in a similar way to the P-38 with the turbine level with the top of the rear fuselage 2 feet behind where the OTL air scoop is located the supercharger air intake is now positioned on the right side of the fuselage beside the TSC location. There is no ingestion of exhaust gasses as these would be now piped back to the TSC.

The entire cockpit canopy is redesigned to a 3 piece fixture consisting of a forward windshield using a built in armoured glass. And a sliding one piece canopy cover. And a one piece rearward facing windshield. This would greatly improve the visibility from the OTL P-39 by removing the cockpit framing.

The 37mm cannon should be replaced by the 20mm AN2 cannon. The 20mm would have a larger ammunition supply than the 37mm and with the higher muzzle velocity and higher rate of fire it would be a better suited weapon for our new ATL interceptor/fighter P-39. With a smaller cannon up front would there be room for another .50 HMG and its ammunition? What a punch that would be for our hotted up little Airacobra. 3 .50s and a 20mm.

Just imagine Bell Aircraft churning out these planes in quantity in 1941. Once the Air Corp pilots figured out how best to utilize them (bigger boom and a little more zoom) they would have been clearing the skies over New Guinea and the Solomons months earlier and hammering the Luftwaffe harder in the Med.

And in an America stands alone scenario our ATL P-39 would be a lot cheaper than the P-38 and more easily mass produced and still a very capable airplane instead of some death trap like an XP-77 and its ilk.
 
The main difference I wanted to highlight in this thread was the use of a more compact method of intercooling. The air cooled heat exchanger used in all American turbo-supercharged airplanes was an effective but bulky system. Not a problem in a B-17 or B-24 engine nacelle but difficult to fit into a fighter. I probably should have chose another name for this thread to illustrate this idea. But it does show with this system how a turbo-supercharger could have been installed satisfactorily even in a compact plane like a P-39.

Why not use a liquid cooled heat exchanger for fighters? It would be a little more complex as it would require another small radiator with it's own small cowling flap. A pump and tubing will connect the small radiator to the heat exchanger. The heat exchanger is then located in the ducting from the turbo-supercharger just before the carburetors.

The chief advantage of this system is it would be more compact. Especially with the radiator located near as possible to the heat exchanger to reduce the length of the tubing. Considering there is less air ducting used than this type of system maybe no heavier than the air cooled heat exchanger. Because liquid cooling is more efficient then air cooling the size of the radiator and heat exchanger can be made much smaller and still provide effective cooling of the compressed air from the TSC.
 

marathag

Banned
The M9 Cannon, derived from the 37mm M1A2 AAA gun, fire a much more powerful round than the M4. Used a
37x223SR case with the M59 APC shot had 2,800 fps MV, so far flatter shooting than the 37x145 at 2000fps
 
I'm thinking the turbo moves the Cg aft a bit, so you'll need either an extra .50 in the nose or more ballast, or something, to compensate.

That said, IMO, this makes for a better P-39, which might (just) butterfly development of the P-51 entirely.:eek:
 
This is a facinating build concept. Liquid-to-air induction charge cooling is something I would have really liked to add to my NACA P-38, for the very reasons you mention but couldn't justify in the context of that TL.

If you can get it to work properly, I think there will still be a couple problems to overcome namely range, top speed, and firepower. I don't know that even a more powerful P-39 will be able to keep pace with top line fighters by '44-'45, but of course, by then you can move up to the P-63.

As for butterflying away the P-51 there is the issue of the P-51 being built for the British who explicitly wanted to avoid Turbo-Superchargers. Even with a superior TSC P-39, I think the RAF would consider it unsuitable.
 
I always understood that was a product of AAF (or USG) refusing to export turbo'd V1710s.


It's a confusing subject. I've read different accounts regarding the British P-38s and their turbo-supercharger removal. The British didn't see the need or didn't want the extra complexity. Or the technology was embargoed by U.S. law.

OTOH the LB-30 (B-24) Liberators that the RAF acquired in 1941 would have had turbo-superchargers like the rest of the B-24s I think. So what does that say about the technology embargo? I'm not sure what exactly happened back then.
 
It's a confusing subject. I've read different accounts regarding the British P-38s and their turbo-supercharger removal. The British didn't see the need or didn't want the extra complexity. Or the technology was embargoed by U.S. law.

OTOH the LB-30 (B-24) Liberators that the RAF acquired in 1941 would have had turbo-superchargers like the rest of the B-24s I think. So what does that say about the technology embargo? I'm not sure what exactly happened back then.
It has the smell of the left hand not knowing what the right is doing... And it's not helped by the vagaries of the Neutrality Acts; did that impact the P-39s & P-38s, but get relaxed by the time the LB-30s were sold? Or did somebody not realize the LB-30 engines had turbos?

And at the risk of driving my hobby-horse into the ground, do you suppose anybody (on either side) would have considered the turbocompound V1710 "turbosupercharged"?;)

I'm getting a migraine...:openedeyewink:
 
It has the smell of the left hand not knowing what the right is doing... And it's not helped by the vagaries of the Neutrality Acts; did that impact the P-39s & P-38s, but get relaxed by the time the LB-30s were sold? Or did somebody not realize the LB-30 engines had turbos?

And at the risk of driving my hobby-horse into the ground, do you suppose anybody (on either side) would have considered the turbocompound V1710 "turbosupercharged"?;)

I'm getting a migraine...:openedeyewink:

If the technology embargo was the problem than anything with a turbine might be prohibited from export. It's that advanced metallurgy of the turbine blades that was considered restricted technology.

Trying to figure out historical puzzles can be disruptive to a tranquil state of mind. Believe me I know. That's why I named my first thread on the CG-4A glider "Going wacky over Wacos." :)
 
Last edited:

marathag

Banned
The CAF B-24 started life as a LB-30A, no turbos.
B24-04.jpg
 
Weren't the LB-30A's originally the YB-24's and they had mechanically driven superchargers iirc. We ended up selling them to Britain and they designated them Liberator Mk.I. Then, later came the LB-30's which had the turbos, I believe. In fact I am pretty sure that the planes which started as YB-24's were the only ones not to have turbos.
 
The CAF B-24 started life as a LB-30A, no turbos.
B24-04.jpg

That would make sense if the turbo blade technology was embargoed. I wish you had another photo showing the complete underside of that nacelle. This plane does have the original shaped nacelle front. Later B-24s had the oval shaped nacelle front to better accommodate the oil coolers and intercoolers.
 

marathag

Banned
That would make sense if the turbo blade technology was embargoed. I wish you had another photo showing the complete underside of that nacelle. This plane does have the original shaped nacelle front. Later B-24s had the oval shaped nacelle front to better accommodate the oil coolers and intercoolers.

You can see the Consolidated family resemblance. I had some walkarounds photos of Diamond Lil I took back in the '80s, but haven't located them, so this.
40_FlyingBoat_20-1300x859.jpg

Here's an ad from a B-24 subcontractor showing some of that ducting they did
B24_IA_4505_ad_nacelle_p055_W.png
 
I always understood that was a product of AAF (or USG) refusing to export turbo'd V1710s.

It's a confusing subject. I've read different accounts regarding the British P-38s and their turbo-supercharger removal. The British didn't see the need or didn't want the extra complexity. Or the technology was embargoed by U.S. law.

OTOH the LB-30 (B-24) Liberators that the RAF acquired in 1941 would have had turbo-superchargers like the rest of the B-24s I think. So what does that say about the technology embargo? I'm not sure what exactly happened back then.

There was no specific embargo on turbos. British signed contract with Lockheed both for Lightning I (no turbo) and Lightning II (turboed, 524 A/C were contracted) in mid-1940, just after France fell.
They also operated turboed B-17s in mid-1941. link
 
Gentlemen,

Being quite new to this (these) forum, am not yet able to include excerpts from other's posts or, for that matter indicate those I like.

In other aero related forum topics, I've indicated a preference for simple,constant flow intake port injection, with the supercharger(s) handling only air. The purpose being utilization of the higher temperature difference between charge and ambient to facilitate use of smaller, more effective heat exchangers. It is the nature of these exchangers that has so far not been discussed, because some of my engineering records (including patent numbers) are not where I thought they were. Will definitely provide documentation soonest. In the interim imagine tightly spaced secondary surfaces impaled on independent isothermal conductors facilitating counter flow.

Dynasoar

Found it! Check out US 3807493. It was a real moneymaker and is still being cited. (wish I had saved some...)
 
Last edited:
In other aero related forum topics, I've indicated a preference for simple,constant flow intake port injection, with the supercharger(s) handling only air. The purpose being utilization of the higher temperature difference between charge and ambient to facilitate use of smaller, more effective heat exchangers. It is the nature of these exchangers that has so far not been discussed, because some of my engineering records (including patent numbers) are not where I thought they were. Will definitely provide documentation soonest. In the interim imagine tightly spaced secondary surfaces impaled on independent isothermal conductors facilitating counter flow.

I might not be understanding your concept very well. But it sounds like you're saying, to use the P-38 as an example, that the engine driven supercharger should have been placed before(upstream) of the carburetors instead of after. And this arrangement would allow an easier and more effective charge temperature control. I don't really see how that works.
 
I might not be understanding your concept very well. But it sounds like you're saying, to use the P-38 as an example, that the engine driven supercharger should have been placed before(upstream) of the carburetors instead of after. And this arrangement would allow an easier and more effective charge temperature control. I don't really see how that works.
He's right, tho I'm not exactly sure why. It's got to do with the temperature of the air, as opposed to an air-fuel mix, & with the nature of the air-fuel mixture, when it enters the combustion chamber. (This comes from years of reading about blown hot rods, but with no source in front of me, so forgive me being vague.:))
 
Last edited:
Top