How to make WWI a stalemate.

Here's a question for a timeline I've been working on, but haven't wokred on since early October. Basically, how can WWI become a stalemate. From what I know, it would have to involve increasingly indecisive battles on the western front, mutinies in the army, and unrest at home, like protests, rioting etc (some of the latter spearheaded by Communists).

But the question is, how would this all start? I was thinking the U.S. not entering the war, but I've heard allot around here that the U.S. remaining neutral (at least militarily, what with supplies still being shipped to the Allies) would mean a Central Power's victory, probably due to Germany's gains on the Eastern front, plus all the food from Ukraine. Is this all the case? Any feedback?
 
mutinies in the army, and unrest at home, like protests, rioting etc (some of the latter spearheaded by Communists).
Generally if you want a stalemate thats pretty much the opposite of what you want happening, since all those argue in favor of ending the war.
 
Generally if you want a stalemate thats pretty much the opposite of what you want happening, since all those argue in favor of ending the war.

What a mean by stalemate is that the war does end with a compromise. For example, Britain and France get this territoriality from Germany while Germany gets this territory from Russia etc. Kind of like how it was in past European Wars, where members of an alliance would gain some and loose some, some more than others, if you know what I mean.
 
What a mean by stalemate is that the war does end with a compromise. For example, Britain and France get this territoriality from Germany while Germany gets this territory from Russia etc. Kind of like how it was in past European Wars, where members of an alliance would gain some and loose some, some more than others, if you know what I mean.
Oh, i thought you were going for some kind of "THE WAR WILL CONTINUE FOREVER" type of thing when you said stalemate.
 
Oh, i thought you were going for some kind of "THE WAR WILL CONTINUE FOREVER" type of thing when you said stalemate.

I have to admit what's in quotations made me chuckle a bit. :p I don't no why, mabye because of how over the top (another unintentional pun :p) you put it.
 
Simple. The US shouldn't enter the war, and every time one side gets an advantage, that side should blow it with a masterful plan like the Verdun/Somme offensives. After all, neither side really understood WWI warfare, and was extremely slow to adapt - they constantly made mistakes anyway. In time, both sides will exhaust themselves too much to continue, and both sides will suffer from increasing internal dissent. Ideal radical (right or left) wank material, too.
 

Perkeo

Banned
WWI WAS a stalemate from November '14 to November '17, so all you have to do is find a way to end the war during that period.

But since no party was willing to accept a stalemate except when it was actually defeated, the war had to go on until someone won.
 
How about...
1. The US remains neutral, but heavily favours the entente with loans.
2. The Germans beat the RN and manage to break the blockade, the US can trade with Germany. The RN is still a power to be reckoned with, but they can't quite get a grip on the blockade.
3. The Ottomans pull out in 1917.
4. Perhaps have Sweden join the central powers at some point...
 
WWI WAS a stalemate from November '14 to November '17, so all you have to do is find a way to end the war during that period.

But since no party was willing to accept a stalemate except when it was actually defeated, the war had to go on until someone won.

What Battle could have ended WWI during that period? It would have to be pretty earth-shattering in order to end the war.

Also, Someone will have to throw in the towel eventually. It would probably become a war of attrition, whatever nations resources are in jeopardy earlier will determine that.

How about...
1. The US remains neutral, but heavily favours the entente with loans.
2. The Germans beat the RN and manage to break the blockade, the US can trade with Germany. The RN is still a power to be reckoned with, but they can't quite get a grip on the blockade.
3. The Ottomans pull out in 1917.
4. Perhaps have Sweden join the central powers at some point...

This sounds good. I my soon to be released timeline A-H and the Ottoman Empire do collapse. Germany would be the only one intact. Plus, how close was Sweden to join the Central Powers IOTL? I now that Sweden wasn't exactly a democracy until 1917, so that could make scene.
 
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BlondieBC

Banned
Here's a question for a timeline I've been working on, but haven't wokred on since early October. Basically, how can WWI become a stalemate. From what I know, it would have to involve increasingly indecisive battles on the western front, mutinies in the army, and unrest at home, like protests, rioting etc (some of the latter spearheaded by Communists).

But the question is, how would this all start? I was thinking the U.S. not entering the war, but I've heard allot around here that the U.S. remaining neutral (at least militarily, what with supplies still being shipped to the Allies) would mean a Central Power's victory, probably due to Germany's gains on the Eastern front, plus all the food from Ukraine. Is this all the case? Any feedback?

If you just mean a negotiate peace, you don't even need to change a battle. People were calling for negotiate peace in non-censored media by the end of 1915. The war had already done more damage than the ACW, the only comparable war in living memory. All countries have internal issues. Falkenhayn wanted a separate peace with one Entente power. All it really takes is one power (I would use Tsar for TL) deciding we have to serious negotiate a peace deal. You could do this any time in 1916. Once the Tsar told France/UK that Russia could not stay in the war, the mechanics of a negotiate settlement become easy.

Note: It helps to know if you want any particular deal, since battle could easily change the details. But in broad terms, you can either start with status quo prewar or date of cease fire. In 1916, we are likely looking at a buffer state of Poland and Lithuania in the east. The haggling is who runs it. Serbia has to be made "free enough" to be face saving. France has to decide if it wants to regain all of prewar France or keep colonial gains. Belgium Congo for Belgium freedom is often discussed on this board. There are lots of issues such as Belgium armed forces and forts, but once an Entente member makes a serious public peace offer, it would be hard for the CP to reject. For Example, Germany gets its African Colonies back plus Congo (MittelAfrika to claim a win). The new French border is the old border. Buffer state of Poland helps Germany and A-H. Some compromise on Serbia (Swiss or Belgian model). IMO, the reverse is also true, but the details would be slightly different.

There was a belief that a serious peace offer would collapse internal morale. I don't really buy this argument, but they seem to back then. who knows, maybe it was true. Any serious offer has to be followed with a major offensive if rejected.

Now you may want the war to drag on to the point all sides are forced to take an offer. As other listed, the USA not entering is a good one to make this happen, but you will get a CP win negotiation. Not a full ToV, since London will not fall, but you will know who wins. You can look at the late parts of my TL to see my take in one scenario. It is about 10 pages from the end of the TL, right before I start all the ship stuff.

But you may not want this one, and have something where there is not clear winner. Now I think we can safely assume Russia loses Poland in most of these plans, but it does not have to be a German client state. USA not entering is too strong. One choice is the USA enters later. But this is a delicate POD. Very easy to get strong CP win. So lets look at how to help win with smaller POD's.

1) You need A-H in war longer. You need more food for this one. Romania not entering the war is a good POD. You can do this with the Brusilov offensive not being a big success. Other ways too. It should buy A-H another year. And potentially free up A-H armies for the Western Front. But if the USA enters on time, it may not be enough. Depends on butterflies, and there are a lot of them. Falkenhayn stays in power, most likely is the big one. This gets complicated.

2) It helps if Ottomans are doing better. Canceling Gallipoli is the obvious choice, but it presents a lot of butterfly issues. And may even help Entente win war faster. But we have other choices. Have Bulgaria enter the war faster and thereby knock out Serbia faster adding connections from Germany to Romania. Or have Romania allow unrestricted weapons movement to the Ottomans. This makes Gallipoli work better for the Ottomans. If you have the offensive in the east not happen, you may prevent the fiasco in the east.

3) A Russian admiral almost attacked Sweden. Have this happen. It is a subtle POD, but with the right butterflies, may get you what you want. You will weaken Russia gains in Galicia in 1914/15. Russia may lose Aland. Russia will always have to keep more units in Finland. Add in likely butterflies such as butterflying Romania entering war or have Bulgaria enter sooner, and you may well get what you want.

What exactly was the POD you were looking at?
 
Alternate History said:
Simple. The US shouldn't enter the war
That would do it. And it wouldn't take long after the OTL entry for one side or the other to say, "Enough". Bearing in mind the U.S. was already tipping the balance, even without co-belligerent (or ally) status, by supplying the Entente.
 
That would do it. And it wouldn't take long after the OTL entry for one side or the other to say, "Enough". Bearing in mind the U.S. was already tipping the balance, even without co-belligerent (or ally) status, by supplying the Entente.

It would be worth noted that while the Entente is running out of steam, Germany's ability to exploit that sucks - its gains in the East are greatly overrated in terms of their exploitability.

Perfect stalemate material.
 

Perkeo

Banned
What Battle could have ended WWI during that period? It would have to be pretty earth-shattering in order to end the war.

No BATTLE could have ended WWI, that is why it lasted so long. Whover won a battle or two, wouldn't accept peace but on insanely harsh condition for the other side. When a battle was a perfect stalemate, both sides claimed victory.

It's this POLITICAL deadlock you have to break when you want a negotiated stalemate. Otherwise, the war goes on until we have a defeat - ironically with the defeated expecting to negotiate a stalemate.

IMO the opportunities for a political solution are:
- The Christmas Truce in 1914 (if the leaders are just a little more impressed and/or afraid of large-scale fraterisation)
- Wilson's mitigation offer in December 1916, whose rejection was one of the official reasons that the US entered the war
- Wilson's 14 Points speech
 
How about...
1. The US remains neutral, but heavily favours the entente with loans.
2. The Germans beat the RN and manage to break the blockade, the US can trade with Germany. The RN is still a power to be reckoned with, but they can't quite get a grip on the blockade.
3. The Ottomans pull out in 1917.
4. Perhaps have Sweden join the central powers at some point...

I don't think that's a stable situation. If Germany has broken the blockade then it is very lkely able to impose its own blockade on the UK, forcing the UK from the war.
 
Not if both navies are too weak to impose a blockade on the other.

Then Germany starves the UK with submarines. - those are quickly built.

I assume that an non US entry would end the war in a stalemate.

The CPs have beaten Russia in the east (Spring 1918) This somewhat solves the food issues.

The spring offensive proves that even numerical superiority does not win the war on the battlefield.

France was war weary (OTL only suspending offensives until US was ready prevented more widespread mutinys)

Say no US troos equals no sucessful allied offensives in 1918

then by summer/autumn 1918 both sides go on the defensive

its spring 1919 - no one makes real progress - its time for negotiations...

Germany is strong as it still is IN France and Belgium

UK is strong as it is inside the Ottoman Empire

Balkans is a mess...


No side can expect to gain territory it does not hold (except maybe it owned it at the start of the war.

East - we now have an independent Poland which is a clientele of Austria and Germany

THE BAltic duchy is a German clientele

Finland becomes independent

Ukraine is a clientele of the CPs

CP and Entente support White forces in Russia

Balkans (Treaty of Bucharest)

Serbia is disarmed but UK/FR insist on independence

Albania is Austrian clientele

Italy borders stay the same (backstab ;))

UK insists on return of Belgian independence - should be granted maybe return of "some" colonies (Deutsch Ost) - german token reparations to belgium

France "trades" Togo, kameroon for french occupied territory and has (grudingly) accept A-L in german hands.

Germany loses all other colonies.

UK demands a reduction of the German fleet (numbers not quality and not significantly - leads to a sort of Washington naval treaty.

Germany should pay a bit to France to save national pride.
 
Here's a question for a timeline I've been working on, but haven't wokred on since early October. Basically, how can WWI become a stalemate?

With great difficulty.

Trouble is that, as James Cameron put it, France had lost too much to compromise, and Germany had won too much. The Germans hold big chunks of France, and if the French are unable to regain them by force, but have to buy them back (probbaly not all of them) by ceding colonies and/or paying a heavy indemnity, that's going to be seen as a defeat, not a draw. But if the Germans are expected to evacuate all their conquests and get notning in return (save perhaps recovering some of their meagre African possessions) they in turn will feel that they have lost. As AJP Taylor out it "What was compromise for one represented defeat for the other".

To make it at all feasible, you probably need to change the campaigns of 1914, so that France does better and Germany worse, and the Western Front runs along a line similar to the 1918 Armistice line. That way, the French can make peace any time and have a their prewar territory, while the Germans, no matter how well they do in any future offensive, have no prospect of either taking Paris or pushing the BEF into the sea. So if/when some analogue to the Nivelle Mutinies takes place, the mutineers may well be more vociferous in their demands for immediate peace, while the politicians find it that little bit easier to swallow. The Germsns, for their part, have far less hope of an outright win. So a drawn peace is at least a possiblity. Not easy though.
 

Kongzilla

Banned
Couldn't the Germans trade the land they hold in France for Alsace Lorraine or wherever it was they were after in France as well as their African and Pacific colonies.

I mean Germany has it's hands in France and the French army is on the brink of revolt, I think Germany could get whatever they want. But that's just me.
 
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