How to get the Germans beat the USSR in 1942

A few un-realistic things would have to happen:

1) Hitler would have to give up control of the war effort.
2) Germany would have to rapidly build up it's supply lines for the winter.
3) In the Spring Germany would have to launch an offensive to capture the oil fields of the Caucauses, whilst staying on the defensive on the rest of the font.
4) Encourage the Japanese to launch an attack in Eastern Russia, instead of Pearl Harbour.
5) When Soviet tanks run out of oil launch an offensive to break their lines.
6) Create a strong enough political movment against the Soviets, who fit in line with Nazi ideals and have enough strength to seize power.
7) Force the new leadership to accept large consessions, much like in the WW1.
8) Please note this is pretty un-realistic, and even if this went according to plan there is still a good litely hood that the Soviets will win, or at least score a good peace treaty.
 
Well,have the Germans follow the original blau operation. So,no splitting of AGS. Stalingrad is taken in about a month[speed/weight of numbers carry the Germans through]. Use forces freed up from the capture of the city to eliminate the Soviets Bridgeheads on the R.Don[which allows the satellite armies to use the river as the main anti-tank line]. Send some motorised units to capture/contain Astrakhan[though this may be unnecessary as its an unlikely jump-off point for any soviet counter-attack]. Send the major panzer/infantry units down the black sea coast to capture remaining soviet strong points. Send a smaller force to capture Maikop/Grozny[the logistics are really terrible in this part of the Caucasus along with weather conditions,so any mass advance to Baku is going to be impossible until at least early,1943]. The Germans may try to bomb Baku by air at this stage though I'm not sure how successful that would be.
Consider now,that the Soviets also have about three quarters of a million troops spare and significant numbers of tanks [not used in Uranus since its been butterflied away by Stalingrads capture]. They can do two things IMO. The first option would involve a push toward Rostov,in an attempt to cut-off the whole of the German AGS in the Caucasus. The flaw with this idea is that it is too obvious,the Germans will almost certainly have some kind of reserve here to make sure they don't lose this vital land connection. The second option which is likely to receive strong support from Zhukov*,is a renewed attack against AGC. The idea being that a major offensive here will at least push the Germans back further from Moscow and at best create an opportunity to break-out and encircle a significant chuck of AGC,thus making up for the humiliating losses in the Caucasus.
So,1943 breaks down into:
1]Clearing out Soviet strong points along the black sea coast.
2]Building up infrastructure to support an advance on Baku.
3]Aerial bombing of baku.
4]Seige of Baku
5]Capture of the city.
6]Soviet push against AGC.
7]Very bloody battle,but the Soviets are outmanouvered/defeated/stalemated.
8]Stalin begins taking more control after these losses.
9]Soviet Tank production is knocked back following loss of plants in Stalingrad.
10]Soviet production at secondary oilfields in the Urals/elsewhere is put at top priority to make up for losses in the Caucasus.
11]End of 43,has Germans in control of the Caucasus. Units being shipped north to help at Leningrad. Stalemate on the Central front.
 
Send the major panzer/infantry units down the black sea coast to capture remaining soviet strong points.
Have you ever been there? This is almost as easy as unmentioned sea mammal.

FYI: Stalin's GULAG spent 8 years building single-track railway line along Black Sea coast, and not for the lack of trying...
 
Have you ever been there? This is almost as easy as unmentioned sea mammal.

FYI: Stalin's GULAG spent 8 years building single-track railway line along Black Sea coast, and not for the lack of trying...

Well,by sending major forces down the black sea coast,I mean against Novorossiysk[which was btw captured in OTL]. By major,I mean enough tanks/troops to clear out the Soviet troops which defended areas around the port in OTL[Malaya Zemlya] and other strong-points which may have developed. Once Novorossiysk is gone,the black sea coast is for all intents and purposes secure.[Yes,the Soviet black sea fleet may escape some how but with inadequate port facilities and lack of land re-supply for spare parts/ammo it will be out of commission by mid-43].
 
Well, the PoD needs to be in 1941 or even earlier to get this to work. I'd offer a number of positive factors for winning against the Soviet Union, and why they didn't turn out:


  1. No War against the UK or USA. Germany punching the Soviets at full strength, and given the implications of no US/UK aid to Uncle Joe, this would be a very strong development in increasing Germany's strength against the Soviets. This, historically, was the hope of Hitler in the leadup to WW2--but the Allies would never allow him the right to mow down countries like Poland to achieve his aims, and the Brits at least would not throw in the towel even when they were alone.
  2. Getting more Allies to contribute more, Earlier. The biggest name here would be Vichy France, which offered to ally with Nazi Germany, but Italy, Japan, Bulgaria and Nationalist Spain could certainly play larger roles than OTL in the initial attack against the Soviets. If the logistical train can support this many forces (and there would have to be much more investment in engineers to do this) the Soviets might simply be at too much of a disadvantage to ever regain the momentum. Hitler was egomaniacial and didn't really consider using allied help until it was forced on him.
  3. Prepare for a long war. Really stupid things, like not having a new tank in 1941 for the invasion, not having winter clothes for the war, and simply having more techs to upgrade Soviet Rail Lines--could save a lot of hardship and enable the Wehrmacht to continue rolling East. The Soviets can fall back thousands of miles, so military planning should focus on a perpetual war. Apparently, this was caused by simple German overconfidence.
  4. Turn the people of the Soviet Union against Stalin. Another big idea: the Wehrmacht was greeted with flowers in the initial phase of the attack against the Soviet Union--and the best defense against partisans and offense against a nation that relies on the hardiness of its people to defend itself is to win the hearts and minds of the people of the Soviet Union. No Pogroms, No Ethnic Cleansing, and offer the Slavic peoples of Eastern Europe real improvements, not violence, as their incentive to support your efforts. Historically, some recruitment of Slavs happened too late in the war to matter--but if it had happened on day one, its quite possible that it would be the Soviet Union that faces Partisan Hell instead of Germany--and that the Soviet Union would collapse entirely against the German crusade against Communism. Obviously, this means things like rewritting Nazi Doctrine and removing the entire German Bureaucracy, so it would be a curiousity, not a plausible direction for the German War Effort.
  5. Make Stalin the bad guy. Winning world opinion that Stalin is the world's greatest monster is quite doable, and evidence is available in the Katyn Woods, the Holomondor, the stories of Soviet Penal Brigades, etc. If the allies are still in the war against Germany, keep offering generous terms towards them while endlessly trying to win the battle for hearts and minds. This would also mean no holocaust or major abuses on the part of Germany--but perhaps Germany simply makes the pragmatic decision to win the war before complicating any of its efforts. Nazi Germany had shown such pragmatism before--doing things like allying with the Soviets in 1939; perhaps playing world opinion could end with a peace deal with the allies, or at least a tacit truce. The Allies, obviously, aren't going to agree to a deal that leads to a German Dominated Europe in this fashion, and its unlikely Hitler would offer them enough to come the table, even if the world was shocked by the atrocities Stalin was committing.
 
Well, the PoD needs to be in 1941 or even earlier to get this to work. I'd offer a number of positive factors for winning against the Soviet Union, and why they didn't turn out:


  1. No War against the UK or USA. Germany punching the Soviets at full strength, and given the implications of no US/UK aid to Uncle Joe, this would be a very strong development in increasing Germany's strength against the Soviets. This, historically, was the hope of Hitler in the leadup to WW2--but the Allies would never allow him the right to mow down countries like Poland to achieve his aims, and the Brits at least would not throw in the towel even when they were alone.
  2. Getting more Allies to contribute more, Earlier. The biggest name here would be Vichy France, which offered to ally with Nazi Germany, but Italy, Japan, Bulgaria and Nationalist Spain could certainly play larger roles than OTL in the initial attack against the Soviets. If the logistical train can support this many forces (and there would have to be much more investment in engineers to do this) the Soviets might simply be at too much of a disadvantage to ever regain the momentum. Hitler was egomaniacial and didn't really consider using allied help until it was forced on him.
  3. Prepare for a long war. Really stupid things, like not having a new tank in 1941 for the invasion, not having winter clothes for the war, and simply having more techs to upgrade Soviet Rail Lines--could save a lot of hardship and enable the Wehrmacht to continue rolling East. The Soviets can fall back thousands of miles, so military planning should focus on a perpetual war. Apparently, this was caused by simple German overconfidence.
  4. Turn the people of the Soviet Union against Stalin. Another big idea: the Wehrmacht was greeted with flowers in the initial phase of the attack against the Soviet Union--and the best defense against partisans and offense against a nation that relies on the hardiness of its people to defend itself is to win the hearts and minds of the people of the Soviet Union. No Pogroms, No Ethnic Cleansing, and offer the Slavic peoples of Eastern Europe real improvements, not violence, as their incentive to support your efforts. Historically, some recruitment of Slavs happened too late in the war to matter--but if it had happened on day one, its quite possible that it would be the Soviet Union that faces Partisan Hell instead of Germany--and that the Soviet Union would collapse entirely against the German crusade against Communism. Obviously, this means things like rewritting Nazi Doctrine and removing the entire German Bureaucracy, so it would be a curiousity, not a plausible direction for the German War Effort.
  5. Make Stalin the bad guy. Winning world opinion that Stalin is the world's greatest monster is quite doable, and evidence is available in the Katyn Woods, the Holomondor, the stories of Soviet Penal Brigades, etc. If the allies are still in the war against Germany, keep offering generous terms towards them while endlessly trying to win the battle for hearts and minds. This would also mean no holocaust or major abuses on the part of Germany--but perhaps Germany simply makes the pragmatic decision to win the war before complicating any of its efforts. Nazi Germany had shown such pragmatism before--doing things like allying with the Soviets in 1939; perhaps playing world opinion could end with a peace deal with the allies, or at least a tacit truce. The Allies, obviously, aren't going to agree to a deal that leads to a German Dominated Europe in this fashion, and its unlikely Hitler would offer them enough to come the table, even if the world was shocked by the atrocities Stalin was committing.


Max has just proven why the Nazis never had any hope of beating the USSR,why?They were nazis.
 

burmafrd

Banned
If Hitler had ordered his military and the SS and company to play nice with the Russians until they are defeated then its very possible. BUT that goes against everything he did and they did the entire war. So there you have it.
 
The logistical nightmare of the Soviet Union is all too clear. What would have really helped fix that would be:

1) The Soviet have the same rail gauge as Europe, allowing the Germans to use their own trains without having to fix the existing system.

2) Using disillusioned Soviets to protect the rails from Stalin's troops, freeing up men for the front and keeping the supply lines open.

Of course, a modern road system in Russia also would have helped a great deal!
 
The easiest way to win the war: 1-Don’t declare war on US. 2-Stay out of its sphere of influence(north Atlantic).

Do you realise what you are saying there?

By not declaring war on the US and keeping out of the North Atlantic, Germany does not automatically win the war.
The convoys would get through with less casualties, Lend Lease would still take place.
Even if the US never actually declares war on Germany, I see Germany being beaten by the Soviet Union in 1946 or 1947 and Stalin driving all the way to the Channel (Perhaps the British can save a bit of France).

The US did not win World War II for the Allies, the Allies won World War II.
 
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