How To Get Conquistador Cesare Borgia?

[Tallil2long]

Exile is going to be a bit of a difficult sell for a number of reasons. Firstly, there was no precedent for using the new world in such a way, and really it never much caught on IOTL for fear of rebellions. Secondly,

Snip.

I see.

Cesare won't be sent out there by an opponent, because even though it's regarded as nearly a death sentence, he could make trouble, and there's no reason to go to the expense.

He is unlikely to be sent out by a friend, because such a person would have better uses for him, and he wouldn't voluntarily go because he still has opportunities in Europe and the New World at this time seems to offer none.

Besides, who could send him out except Ferdinand, who seriously dislikes him?

I suppose it is unlikely for Cesare to be reconciled with Ferdinand? Or to have never entered an adversarial relationship with him?

 

[wilcoxchar]

while Ferdinand would have a similar dilemma, except it is technically his wife's territory, but at this point he's expecting his children to inherit his wife's territory, so once again he has no incentive to risk the territory, and even if he were willing Isabella most likely won't be. There's also logistics and expense relative to execution or imprisonment, so suffice it to say exile is an unlikely choice.

Actually if this is after 1504 then Isabella is dead and Juana is queen of Castile. If it's after 1507, then Ferdinand is for all intents and purposes the ruler of Castile, even before Juana was confined at Tordesillas.

 

[oshron]

Actually if this is after 1504 then Isabella is dead and Juana is queen of Castile. If it's after 1507, then Ferdinand is for all intents and purposes the ruler of Castile, even before Juana was confined at Tordesillas.

*lightbulb* an idea just occurred to me. what if, after the Treaty of Tordesillas (my brain works in strange ways ), Rodrigo sends Cesare to the New World to confirm this? probably stupid, but it's just a thought.

i'm also writing down everything that's been discussed so far and i'll be weighing the options. right now, exile after Rodrigo dies seems the most attractive one, possibly with him having died earlier than IOTL. iirc, there WERE some attempts on his life, so one of those could succeed.

 

[aktarian]

i'm also writing down everything that's been discussed so far and i'll be weighing the options. right now, exile after Rodrigo dies seems the most attractive one, possibly with him having died earlier than IOTL. iirc, there WERE some attempts on his life, so one of those could succeed.

You don't have to have him assassinated. There were enoguh diseases and their otbreaks to have him die of natural causes.

 

[Avitus]

I see.

Cesare won't be sent out there by an opponent, because even though it's regarded as nearly a death sentence, he could make trouble, and there's no reason to go to the expense.

He is unlikely to be sent out by a friend, because such a person would have better uses for him, and he wouldn't voluntarily go because he still has opportunities in Europe and the New World at this time seems to offer none.

Besides, who could send him out except Ferdinand, who seriously dislikes him?

I suppose it is unlikely for Cesare to be reconciled with Ferdinand? Or to have never entered an adversarial relationship with him?

Yeah, that's basically the long and short of it. Although, as I mentioned rather than being friendly with Ferdinand we could always wait until he dies and see if the next king of Spain is more open to using Cesare in his capacity as a commander, which might open the new world to him.

Actually if this is after 1504 then Isabella is dead and Juana is queen of Castile. If it's after 1507, then Ferdinand is for all intents and purposes the ruler of Castile, even before Juana was confined at Tordesillas.

True, but since Cesare died IOTL 1507 I figured that I'd contain my post to addressing problems present in his lifetime. Either way that still doesn't make Ferdinand like or trust him, so unless that changes Ferdinand won't be giving him command of anything.

 

[oshron]

as chance would have it, i was about to post here with some streamlined possibilities that i wrote up based on the earlier discussions. here's what i have:

(1) Cesare is appointed "Cardinal of the New World" by Rodrigo at the same time that he was appointed as a cardinal IOTL (i don't have the exact date written down), possibly because Rodrigo predicts the importance of the Americas and sends him there to secure a foothold (basically like an offshore bank account) if worse comes to worse for the Borgias; at this same time, Juan Borgia becomes a military commander for the Papal States and fulfills his OTL roles, though Juan's death in 1497 may be butterflied since it's rumored that Cesare may have killed him IOTL (though there were others with motive and means to kill him)

(2) Rodrigo dies earlier than IOTL and is succeeded (in time) by della Rovere as Julius II as IOTL, who starts dismantling the Borgia legacy coupled with Cesare's Romagna campaign faltering, so he looks for advancement elsewhere and goes to Valencia, surviving Viana with two options for here:

• either he is captured by Ferdinand and exiled to the New World so that he can't threaten Europe anymore (a Uriah Gambit)
• or he escapes capture and takes on numerous dead-end mercenary jobs (which could have their own interesting effects, depending on the scale of them) so he decides to become a conquistador at about the same time as Cortez IOTL

(3) with a POD at the time of his OTL death, he escapes both capture and death at Viana; this possibility parallels the previous one, just with a later POD and therefore allowing Cesare to keep his OTL roles and reputation, which could have their own effects

(4) Rodrigo never becomes Pope at all, making Cesare a nobody until he gets to the New World and takes on Cortez's OTL role, which not only seems more plausible but also puts him into the criteria of other conquistadors (and from a narrative standpoint it could be interesting; one thing i'm considering as prose is that he and Cortez meet and have a conversation or two on their way to the New World, with Cesare becoming an officially-sanctioned commander while Cortez is eventually imprisoned as a criminal)

(5) the POD is his imprisonment in Aragon, which he doesn't escape from, but is later released by Ferdinand's successor and is commissioned for a New World conquest, giving him legitimacy



also, an interesting narrative which occurred to me is that he travels to the New World on the same ship carrying Gonzalo Guerrero (who also figures into the TL) and falls overboard during the accident that sinks the ship, believed to be dead by Guerrero and the other survivors but he washes up in Spanish-controlled territory, though this one isn't necessarily plausible (but stranger things have happened); after getting to the Spanish Caribbean, he just hangs out for a bit until he signs up/is appointed to the expedition led by Cortez IOTL, possibly usurping command from the official leader (which may even BE Cortez, depending) and it goes from there

 

[oshron]

i ultimately decided on it being as IOTL until Cesare is imprisoned in Aragon, not escaping but being released by Charles V and commissioned to conquer the New World as was suggested earlier in the thread. i've gotten back to writing the actual TL, but i wanted to ask one thing as long as i still have this thread up and its relatively relevant: does anyone think Cesare would demand and search for gold like Cortez did, or would his ignore that for personal gain in other ways? i even found a biography on him and, though i only skimmed, it seems to me that he was greedier for power than he was for wealth. thus far for my TL's rewrite i've basically just been substituting his name for Cortez's and i don't want to do that.

another thing i wanted to ask is how long everyone thinks he'd live if he wasn't killed when he was IOTL, since i recalled recently that close to the end of his life he was suffering from syphilis and it even disfigured him (apparently he wore a mask over half his face because of this)