No, everything just had to be done by the Chinese firsthand before the Europeans could use them against them Amerindians and Africans. Those pesky Chinese!
How to get China to feel conquest is a good idea.
- Thread starter Emperor RyRy
- Start date
No, everything just had to be done by the Chinese firsthand before the Europeans could use them against them Amerindians and Africans. Those pesky Chinese!
I think getting rid of the xenophobia that Chinese leaders had too much of would've been a good start.
Actually, if you go a bit further south, to Central America, it is the west coast that was considered the best place to settle down, with the best soil and so on.
tenthring
Banned
What would there have been to gain for the Chinese? The Europeans wanted access to Chinese goods (which China already had) and spices (which are right next to China, no middle man). The entire Age of Exploration was an attempt to do an end run around Islam to get to Asia. Let's remember that these expeditions were launched because they were profitable, because having one out of five ships limp back with some spices made the whole thing a success. Chinese treasure fleets were notoriously unprofitable, and the major criticism the mandarins made was that they were vainglorious resource sinks.
What ended up happening in the Americas was basically an accident. Not in the sense that they weren't deliberate decisions made by the Europeans when they got there, but only that if they truly knew Asia wasn't there they never would have come in the first place.
What ended up happening in the Americas was basically an accident. Not in the sense that they weren't deliberate decisions made by the Europeans when they got there, but only that if they truly knew Asia wasn't there they never would have come in the first place.
"Ivan! some man in purple weird coat says we should pay him"
"Nyet, tell him we will pay nothing and that he should pay tribute"
And thats how the Chinese launched an Invasion of Russia, which failed miserably, then the Russians counter-attacked with the help of Mongol forces and managed to overtake all of China
"why ivst the letters so weird, first order of business change to glorious Rus letters"
And all the Bronze statues from the Zhou Dynasty to then were all melted down to create one giant cannon
I dont know, the qing extermination of dzunghars and replacement with ughyers and han resembles colonization.
In fact right now the modern economic historical consensus is that China did indeed colonize except its colonization efforts were focused towards the steppes and tibet due to the perceived threat the qing feared from the actions of these regions. The reason they didnt focus on the pacific was that they were too busy in the west and not to mention with rebbelions, unrest, and other issues as well as warfare with ming particularists(early on) and growing population making beurocracy and adminstration further difficult meant that the qing were in no position to colonize the new world.
As others have mentioned they also had that tributary empire of theirs.
But to say they didnt feel conquest was a good idea is flat out wrong. The qing did think conquest was a good idea so long as it served their defensive interests. Geography, logistics, population, internal unrest and Russia stopped them expanding further.
In fact right now the modern economic historical consensus is that China did indeed colonize except its colonization efforts were focused towards the steppes and tibet due to the perceived threat the qing feared from the actions of these regions. The reason they didnt focus on the pacific was that they were too busy in the west and not to mention with rebbelions, unrest, and other issues as well as warfare with ming particularists(early on) and growing population making beurocracy and adminstration further difficult meant that the qing were in no position to colonize the new world.
As others have mentioned they also had that tributary empire of theirs.
But to say they didnt feel conquest was a good idea is flat out wrong. The qing did think conquest was a good idea so long as it served their defensive interests. Geography, logistics, population, internal unrest and Russia stopped them expanding further.
No, the problem is that China is already absolutely fricking huge. Even today it's the third largest country on the planet. The only bigger states still standing are Russia and Canada and that's because they're mostly empty, frozen wilderness that no one really wants all that badly. China's really about as big as a country can be and still hold together. It was during the Ming, and the Qing, and it is now.
The British Raj would like a word with you.
The British Raj would like a word with you.
The problem is that the old Chinese empires since the Qin were all centralised states. The size of China Proper is more or less the extent to which they can enforce effective rule due to the distance between the border provinces and the central administrative body (it takes about a week by horses to go from the Hexi corridor to Xi'an, I think? I'm not too sure on this).
A more decentralised model of rule (some sort of hybrid HRE/Zhou dynasty style government, maybe?) where local regions gets a bit more autonomy in terms of treasury and military forces might make them more inclined to expand, though of course that runs the risk of breakaways and revolts.
A more decentralised model of rule (some sort of hybrid HRE/Zhou dynasty style government, maybe?) where local regions gets a bit more autonomy in terms of treasury and military forces might make them more inclined to expand, though of course that runs the risk of breakaways and revolts.
A place to dump their excess population.One of the things that plagued Chinese Dynasties was overpopulation.
But they didnt because by the time the 18th cetury comes around spain already holds the new world and the qing needing silver for their economy prefffered trading with the spanish than go to war. For earlier pod impossible cause till 1700+ the q I ng were busy expanding intk the steppes fighting ming particularists and quelling internal unrest. Like before they arent interested in fighting spain.
As for the ming... by the 1600s corruption, stepe wars, manchus, and imjin exhausted the state and by 1540s most of north america was already claimed by spain. Colonization of the new world just aint happenning.
Doesn't matter if Spain claimed the land.Their claim does not reflect actual control,and the Dutch,the English and the French all gave no f#$k about Spanish claims.The problem is that the distance between Spain and the Americas is much shorter than the distance between China and the Americas.
Also, can't the Imperial court just send excess populations to Tibet or Mongolia if it's just a big problem, as they did OTL?
Problem about Tibet or Mongolia is that the land doesn't attract anyone.A lot of the land's infertile. Taiwan is probably a better spot to dump excess population considering it's close and fertile.Problem again is that the Chinese governments didn't really bother with it for some reason and IIRC,actually tried to stop migration there.
Conquest to get rid of excess population could have been viable in the woodlands along the Pacific Coast North of Korea. Definitely more fertile than Mongolia or Tibet ever since the Chinese agricultural packages include something for the region.
It does ma tterer because silver trade was vital to the chinese economy since disruption of it would prove catastrophic and the qing knew this. The dutch and english didnt have any such reliance to rhat big of an extent on spanish bullion. You do know right that chinese industrt and manufacturing was geared towards exporting porclean and textiles for silver right and that the chinese monetary system was wholly based on silver.
Thing is that it's also equally true that Spain needs Chinese goods more than empty land in North America that they have claimed but have no control whatsoever.I think the main problem is distance and the lack of will.Another thing is that Chinese seafaring and shipbuilding skill seems to have declined after Haijin IIRC.
Agree with you on the seafaring skill probably because the qing focused too much attention up north and west and so focused on land forces at expense of navy after defeating the song particularists and also on the distance issue. We know Spain had no control whatsoever but do the chinese. On top of that if business is vital for btoh i dont see them going to war over some lands thousands of miles away from china, just because of population.
Thing is,assuming Ming China(assuming China in the 1500s) had the will to do so and the technological skill required to move to the West Coast,fights will probably be limited skirmishes in the colonies alone.Most of the time, trade between Spain and other colonial powers continued even when skirmishes occurred in the colonies.Spain is also too overstretched to actually fight a full on war with Ming either in North America or in Asia itself for some empty land it has no control over.
Is this same ming facing internal unrest tatar enemies, pirates, corruption, bloated beurocracy, and a crazy japan
And the internal unrest could be solved by dumping excess population to California.Gold mines from there will also increase revenue.
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