How to get a Greek-like Antiquity along the Horn of Africa/Swahili coast

[Midas]

I'm talking about a sort of rough African-cognate to the romanticized city-states in Ancient Greece. By "cognate" I'm not talking 'there is a Swahili/Somali clone of Socrates' (as amusing and intriguing as it might be), I mean more- could we see coastal East Africa as having such a significant and lasting impact on the polities around it, like Greece did? I realize many states historically have had a great deal of influence along the Horn (mythical Punt and Axum come to mind immediately), but I hope I'm not off in assuming you get what I mean by Greek-like influence... if it's not, I mean a sort of ageographical influence wherein some ancient political order of city-states generates a bunch of influencial thinkers whose works are heavily studied throughout history (up until today).

The influences of Ancient Greece penetrated borders beyond religion and ethnicity, as Islam and North Africa was just as affected by the thought of Aristotle and Plato as the West would be in years to come- so I'm not exclusively confining any sort of influence to just Africa. The reason I ask for this is like the Greeks, the Horn of Africa or the Swahili Coast (either really) are both very well situated along a very rich three-way trade route, albeit in this case an African-Persian-Indian one. Specifically along the Horn, the terrain in Dijibouti/Eriteria/Western Ethiopia isn't all that different from Greece (strictly in terms of the mountain ranges / coastal regions / interspersed fertile farmland, climatically and flora/fauna wise I'm not comparing them). In Somalia, the large deserts and hilly regions favor urbanization- particularly along the coast. The Swahili coast I included as well for similar reasons- although it's quite different geographically and climatically, it has quite a history of city-states and is still well-suited for trade links between the Persian Gulf and India.

So am I totally off in trying to transplant a sort of Greek-like socio-cultural phenomenon in the Horn or the Swahili Coast? If not, is there anyway to get a sort of Athens-Sparta situation (or more players, whatever) in East Africa that remains a big part of regional lore? Have African thinkers, philosophers, etc. emerge? Preferably this would be an early PoD, not necessarily at the same time as the Greeks but still in the Classical / Dark Ages-era in Europe. This might butterfly away Islam, I guess- I'm open to whatever but PoDs post-Islam would be impressive. Antiquity then might be misleading: I just mean similar to Greeks here not necessarily married to the same tech era.

 

[Russian Sailor]

I'm talking about a sort of rough African-cognate to the romanticized city-states in Ancient Greece. By "cognate" I'm not talking 'there is a Swahili/Somali clone of Socrates' (as amusing and intriguing as it might be), I mean more- could we see coastal East Africa as having such a significant and lasting impact on the polities around it, like Greece did? I realize many states historically have had a great deal of influence along the Horn (mythical Punt and Axum come to mind immediately), but I hope I'm not off in assuming you get what I mean by Greek-like influence... if it's not, I mean a sort of ageographical influence wherein some ancient political order of city-states generates a bunch of influencial thinkers whose works are heavily studied throughout history (up until today).

The influences of Ancient Greece penetrated borders beyond religion and ethnicity, as Islam and North Africa was just as affected by the thought of Aristotle and Plato as the West would be in years to come- so I'm not exclusively confining any sort of influence to just Africa. The reason I ask for this is like the Greeks, the Horn of Africa or the Swahili Coast (either really) are both very well situated along a very rich three-way trade route, albeit in this case an African-Persian-Indian one. Specifically along the Horn, the terrain in Dijibouti/Eriteria/Western Ethiopia isn't all that different from Greece (strictly in terms of the mountain ranges / coastal regions / interspersed fertile farmland, climatically and flora/fauna wise I'm not comparing them). In Somalia, the large deserts and hilly regions favor urbanization- particularly along the coast. The Swahili coast I included as well for similar reasons- although it's quite different geographically and climatically, it has quite a history of city-states and is still well-suited for trade links between the Persian Gulf and India.

So am I totally off in trying to transplant a sort of Greek-like socio-cultural phenomenon in the Horn or the Swahili Coast? If not, is there anyway to get a sort of Athens-Sparta situation (or more players, whatever) in East Africa that remains a big part of regional lore? Have African thinkers, philosophers, etc. emerge? Preferably this would be an early PoD, not necessarily at the same time as the Greeks but still in the Classical / Dark Ages-era in Europe. This might butterfly away Islam, I guess- I'm open to whatever but PoDs post-Islam would be impressive. Antiquity then might be misleading: I just mean similar to Greeks here not necessarily married to the same tech era.

I'd be nice to see a strong greek city state that mixes with helleno-african culture maybe this would help with trade and everything and if it was christian it might even affect how rislam is spread

 

[KingByng]

Have Persia become hostile to foreigners. Persia did experience a number of invasions by nomads, so maybe instead of each successive group of nomads taking control of Persia like OTL we see these rebuffed. Accompanying this is a rise in xenophobia, where Persia becomes hostile to all outsiders because, as the Persians see it, they all want to kill Persians and take control of Persian wealth for themselves.

Traders who followed the Silk Routes through Persia to the West are forced to go south and take the maritime routes.

With a huge increase of trade on the sea lanes, the societies along the Horn of Africa become much more wealthy than OTL. With wealth comes strength. This strength leads to (relative) stability. This stability leads to a dramatic increase in the arts. And by the time Persia reopens to the world, the nations of the Horn are wealthy and powerful in their own right, so trade doesn't dry up as people in both the East and West desire the goods of the Horn, so the Horn is no longer just a facilitator of trade but a producer of it in its own right.

I realize this might be ASB, as I don't have extensive knowledge on the area and it's history. But maybe someone more versed in the history of this part of the world can take this idea and build on it.

 

[Russian Sailor]

Have Persia become hostile to foreigners. Persia did experience a number of invasions by nomads, so maybe instead of each successive group of nomads taking control of Persia like OTL we see these rebuffed. Accompanying this is a rise in xenophobia, where Persia becomes hostile to all outsiders because, as the Persians see it, they all want to kill Persians and take control of Persian wealth for themselves.

Traders who followed the Silk Routes through Persia to the West are forced to go south and take the maritime routes.

With a huge increase of trade on the sea lanes, the societies along the Horn of Africa become much more wealthy than OTL. With wealth comes strength. This strength leads to (relative) stability. This stability leads to a dramatic increase in the arts. And by the time Persia reopens to the world, the nations of the Horn are wealthy and powerful in their own right, so trade doesn't dry up as people in both the East and West desire the goods of the Horn, so the Horn is no longer just a facilitator of trade but a producer of it in its own right.

I realize this might be ASB, as I don't have extensive knowledge on the area and it's history. But maybe someone more versed in the history of this part of the world can take this idea and build on it.

I think what might needs to happen to not make this ASB is to create a persia where their it is surrnded by hostile tribes due to persia's failed expanshionists policies so seeing as their world is not opened due to trade they won't have that much trading resources and as you then say create a alternate trade route in the horn of africa and then do the rest as you said. But I think is what should happen is that because of trade their there should be a bigger population of greeks in the swahili coast and horn of africa which might help the ethiopians a bit too.

 

[Midas]

Just in case it wasn't clear, I'm not suggesting supplanting local languages and cultures with Hellenic settlers or anything. I meant it as a sort of "how do we get a historical parallel" along the Horn of Africa/Swahili Coast that is like the Greek antiquity in the sense that there is a huge corpus of literature dealing with arts, philosophy, etc. There is, in these places, much art and philosophy and the like: the difference being that it did not permeate too far outside of these cultures. Here I'm asking how to get city-states, thinkers, historical persons etc. that could be as well known as the Greek ones in any parts of Africa/Asia/India.

Ethnically these city-states would likely be Ethiopian, Somali or Swahili/Batu.

 

[Russian Sailor]

Just in case it wasn't clear, I'm not suggesting supplanting local languages and cultures with Hellenic settlers or anything. I meant it as a sort of "how do we get a historical parallel" along the Horn of Africa/Swahili Coast that is like the Greek antiquity in the sense that there is a huge corpus of literature dealing with arts, philosophy, etc. There is, in these places, much art and philosophy and the like: the difference being that it did not permeate too far outside of these cultures. Here I'm asking how to get city-states, thinkers, historical persons etc. that could be as well known as the Greek ones in any parts of Africa/Asia/India.

Ethnically these city-states would likely be Ethiopian, Somali or Swahili/Batu.

I see create states that are kind of like greek city states well as I was saying about the greek settlers and traders will eventually will tell stories about their way of life which will help in the developement of african city states.

 

[Malta]

Well a big part of Greece's development was that it learned from the civilizations around it, they learned alot from Egypt particularly during that whole Sea Peoples period. So stimulation from a outside culture would be a key, but I think you just want one that gives just a shock to start the city-states?

Though OTL city-states did exsist and develop, it could be a lack of OTL records surviving to this day that any personas in the area were well known. Though I suppose the best place to start would be with some great person doing something radical like inventing a invention or form of philosophy or religion and spreading it on the Arabian Sea trade area. From there have someone or someones try or actually conquer the area, Have more recorded events basicly.

 

[Russian Sailor]

Well a big part of Greece's development was that it learned from the civilizations around it, they learned alot from Egypt particularly during that whole Sea Peoples period. So stimulation from a outside culture would be a key, but I think you just want one that gives just a shock to start the city-states?

Though OTL city-states did exsist and develop, it could be a lack of OTL records surviving to this day that any personas in the area were well known. Though I suppose the best place to start would be with some great person doing something radical like inventing a invention or form of philosophy or religion and spreading it on the Arabian Sea trade area. From there have someone or someones try or actually conquer the area, Have more recorded events basicly.

I see what we nee to do is not only do what the other posts said but create strong cultures around the sawhili and horn of african coast so the city states can create states

 

[Midas]

Indeed this is why I chose the area, since I never actually knew much of East Africa's history is in city-states. Does anyone know if they had a writing system in the region at the time, or did they only adopt Arabic script post-Muhammed?

Though OTL city-states did exsist and develop, it could be a lack of OTL records surviving to this day that any personas in the area were well known. Though I suppose the best place to start would be with some great person doing something radical like inventing a invention or form of philosophy or religion and spreading it on the Arabian Sea trade area. From there have someone or someones try or actually conquer the area, Have more recorded events basicly.

 

[archaeogeek]

There's an ethiopic abjad that started around Axum under phoenician influence about the same time period the alphabet reached Etruria and the Italians. The name is Ge'ez. I'm not sure if or when it stopped being used...

 

[Midas]

Right, I forgot about Ge'ez. Wiki says the Somalians had an ancient alphabet as well, though the source is a book link. No mention on Swahili, though iirc it spread mostly thanks to Zanzibar/Oman.

That said, in terms of actual geography: where is the most likely setting for an East African Greek-like Antiquity? I see three big areas being possible (and not necessarily exclusive either): the African-Arabian Red Sea regions (particularly around Eritrea/Dijbouti/Northern Ethiopia/Punt), the Horn east and south of that and the greater Swahili Coast region (Zanzibar and the coastline of Tanzinia/Kenya/Northern Mozambique).

What sort of things would help spread ideas, socio-cultural nuances, language and learning in these regions outwards? And I guess, in reference to the Sea Peoples comment above- who would be trying to invade each of these peoples?

There's an ethiopic abjad that started around Axum under phoenician influence about the same time period the alphabet reached Etruria and the Italians. The name is Ge'ez. I'm not sure if or when it stopped being used...

 

[archaeogeek]

Right, I forgot about Ge'ez. Wiki says the Somalians had an ancient alphabet as well, though the source is a book link. No mention on Swahili, though iirc it spread mostly thanks to Zanzibar/Oman.

That said, in terms of actual geography: where is the most likely setting for an East African Greek-like Antiquity? I see three big areas being possible (and not necessarily exclusive either): the African-Arabian Red Sea regions (particularly around Eritrea/Dijbouti/Northern Ethiopia/Punt), the Horn east and south of that and the greater Swahili Coast region (Zanzibar and the coastline of Tanzinia/Kenya/Northern Mozambique).

What sort of things would help spread ideas, socio-cultural nuances, language and learning in these regions outwards? And I guess, in reference to the Sea Peoples comment above- who would be trying to invade each of these peoples?

At that point in time I suspect Swahili is off by a few centuries, the early languages of the region would have been either closer to the ethiopic languages or somali (so close to semitic) or nilotic. The arrival of the Swahili on the coasts would coincide more or less with the fall of Axum as far as I can tell. The Bantu are thus the most likely invaders on land, with the arabs and the indians (especially Marathi-originated south aryans, as the Sinhalese and Maldivians of OTL were when they colonized the islands) and malays by sea (since they did colonize Sri Lanka and Madagascar in the period).

 

[Malta]

Maybe it spreads and influences Great Zimbabwae then S. Africa as the Bantu become Somaliized.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Part of the reason for Greek city states was that Greece was so rocky. So the easiest way to go from one place to another was by sea.

Once 'polis' was the Greek meme, they carried it elsewhere.

The horn of Africa doesn't have equivalent geography, I don't think, so the mostly likely way to get city states is to import them from Greece...

 

[Russian Sailor]

Part of the reason for Greek city states was that Greece was so rocky. So the easiest way to go from one place to another was by sea.

Once 'polis' was the Greek meme, they carried it elsewhere.

The horn of Africa doesn't have equivalent geography, I don't think, so the mostly likely way to get city states is to import them from Greece...

If that's so we need a large number of greek settlers and traders to get that Idea to spread in africa

 

[DuQuense]

Problem with Greeks in the Horn. The red sea is 2000 miles long, with rocky desert coastline. Not a inviting trip.

What whe have to do is have more localized native political units.

The Great Maghreb Dam was built in 500 BC and allowed a large advanced Politics to grow around the irrigation System. Land of the two Paradises.
But the Maghreb Dam was a major Dam in a large valley, and the System covered a large portion of Now Yemen.

So lets not have the ancient Yemeni, be so ambitious. There are lots of smaller Arroyos all along the coast. So a lot of smaller Dams/Irrigation Systems each with it's own Polis.

They would be separated by Desert, and like the Greeks on their islands, Trying to keep out of Persia's grasp.

 

[wolf_brother]

omg guys I think the OP has stated several times now that he's not looking for 'Greeks in Horn of Africa', he's looking for 'Horn of Africa like Greece'

I agree with KingByng, have Persia become a less lucrative route for the East-West trade of the time, especially re: India. Even OTL in ancient times the Horn was very important for over-seas trade. So simply shifting more of the East-West trade into the southern route would go a long way to increasing wealth, increasingly the importance of sailing, city-states, etc.

 

[pa_dutch]

I was going to bring of the "Periplus of the Erythrean Sea", too. It seems that already, during classical times, traders from South Arabia were building trade networks along the East African coast:

16. Two days' sail beyond, there lies the very last market-town of the continent of Azania, which is called Rhapta; which has its name from the sewed boats (rhapton ploiarion) already mentioned; in which there is ivory in great quantity, and tortoise-shell. Along this coast live men of piratical habits, very great in stature, and under separate chiefs for each place. The Mapharitic chief governs it under some ancient right that subjects it to the sovereignty of the state that is become first in Arabia. And the people of Muza now hold it under his authority, and send thither many large ships, using Arab captains and agents, who are familiar with the natives and intermarry with them, and who know the whole coast and understand the language.

17. There are imported into these markets the lances made at Muza especially for this trade, and hatchets and daggers and awls, and various kinds of glass; and at some places a little wine, and wheat, not for trade, but to serve for getting the good-will of the savages. There are exported from these places a great quantity of ivory, but inferior to that of Adulis, and rhinoceros-horn and tortoise-shell (which is in best demand after that from India), and a little palm-oil.

18. And these markets of Azania are the very last of the continent that stretches down on the right hand from Berenice; for beyond these places the unexplored ocean curves around toward the west, and running along by the regions to the south of Aethiopia and Libya and Africa, it mingles with the western sea.

http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/periplus/periplus.html

It seems, then, that what you need to do is strengthen the South Arabian states of Yemen, since these will likely be the ancestral root of your culture. Even if not, there's no doubt that the South Arabians will have a very significant presence in the economic development of the area.

That, or you could go even further back to the mysterious Puntites encountered by Queen Hapshetsut of New Kingdom Egypt. There's a hypothesis that the town of "Opone" mentioned in the Periplus might be connected to Punt but there's no way to prove it, especially considering there's a gap of about a millennium and a half between the two accounts.

There's also the Ethiopians, of course, first with the Kingdom of D'mat in the 8th Century BC and then with Aksum in the 1st Century BC, which had a very complex relationship with the South Arabian states.

 

[Russian Sailor]

I was going to bring of the "Periplus of the Erythrean Sea", too. It seems that already, during classical times, traders from South Arabia were building trade networks along the East African coast:



http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/periplus/periplus.html

It seems, then, that what you need to do is strengthen the South Arabian states of Yemen, since these will likely be the ancestral root of your culture. Even if not, there's no doubt that the South Arabians will have a very significant presence in the economic development of the area.

That, or you could go even further back to the mysterious Puntites encountered by Queen Hapshetsut of New Kingdom Egypt. There's a hypothesis that the town of "Opone" mentioned in the Periplus might be connected to Punt but there's no way to prove it, especially considering there's a gap of about a millennium and a half between the two accounts.

There's also the Ethiopians, of course, first with the Kingdom of D'mat in the 8th Century BC and then with Aksum in the 1st Century BC, which had a very complex relationship with the South Arabian states.

If that's so could we make saba the cultural route if there are going to be a TL on it. Could we make saba culturaly great

 

[wolf_brother]

If that's so could we make saba the cultural route if there are going to be a TL on it. Could we make saba culturaly great

A more south-centered, African based Christianity?