How To Get A Centralised Holy Roman Empire Under the Habsburgs?

Most of the Habsburg lands were near open revolt because he offended the non-German minorities so much. Leopold had to spend most his time touring round to conciliate everyone afterwards. Perhaps if Joseph had pulled off Bavarian annexation, it could have swung the balance, but I suspect a civil war was on the cards either way.
I have a feeling we might be talking about different josephs here
 
IMHO the best chance for the HRE to centralize was for Charles I & V to leave the Burgundian inheritance to the Maximilians instead of Spain.

This gives a the Maximilians a demesne that is roughly half of the HRE and by far the richer half. Allowing centralization to take place, especially with the legitimacy of fighting off the Turkish infidel.
 
IMHO the best chance for the HRE to centralize was for Charles I & V to leave the Burgundian inheritance to the Maximilians instead of Spain.

This gives a the Maximilians a demesne that is roughly half of the HRE and by far the richer half. Allowing centralization to take place, especially with the legitimacy of fighting off the Turkish infidel.

So, giving the Burgundian Netherlands to Ferdinand and his son instead of the Philip?
 
Interesting, could this prompt a shift in capital to the Low Countries, or would it necessitate Maximillian being raised in the low countries?

I would think that the Lordship of the Netherlands would become like an apprentice position for the heir apparent. Leave the capital and Emperor in Vienna facing the Turk, and send the young prince to Brussels to learn from one of his aunts Infanta or Archduchess acting as regents.

So the titles Prince of Wales and King of the Germans designates the heir. The Lordship of the Netherlands and the Duchy of Cornwall is where the heir gets to learn the tricks of the trade.
 
I would think that the Lordship of the Netherlands would become like an apprentice position for the heir apparent. Leave the capital and Emperor in Vienna facing the Turk, and send the young prince to Brussels to learn from one of his aunts Infanta or Archduchess acting as regents.

So the titles Prince of Wales and King of the Germans designates the heir. The Lordship of the Netherlands and the Duchy of Cornwall is where the heir gets to learn the tricks of the trade.

Alright now that will be interesting, and could well stop potential dutch revolt from happening as well.
 
Alright now that will be interesting, and could well stop potential dutch revolt from happening as well.

That is what I figure, it is a lot easier to revolt against a distant and zealous Emperor from Spain.(with France acting as blocker) Then a moderate Heir Apparent who is out practising with his Terios two towns over.
 
Aye this is true, I imagine as well, that such a change would perhaps bring more revenue to the Habsburgs themselves in Austria, thus lessening one less burden for Madrid.
 
Oh yes indeed. And the Lowlands are rich because of its productivity and competitive advantage, not because of some shiny but useless metal found in the ground. Grand your loyal;) and devout:closedtongue: subjects market access throughout the HRE and watch the money roll in.

The Lowlands were at that time the Arsenal of Europe so keep them loyal and your army's will be the best equipped units around.:cool: And combined the protestant and catholic halfs OTL raised and equipped a field army of around 40.000 men(60.000 if you add the French subsidies and Spanish contributions). Which will be real helpful when you are kicking in the door of Belgrade.

Also most of the small states in HRE were in the west and in the economic sphere of the Lowlands. this ended in OTL during the 80 year war. But without said conflict they would soon become vulnerable to economic and diplomatic pressure from their neighbor going through a Golden Age.:happyblush
 
Okay very interesting, so Austria is likely to become a lot richer with acess to the low countries, and France is really going to feel suffocated. I wonder would this lead to a more economically developed and more stringently closer HRE then as you are suggesting.
 
....

I would go back to the 1500s and have the Hapsburgs adopt something between Anglicanism and Lutheranism. Quash the Catholics, establish a variant episcopacy, and place the Emperor or his pet as Head Of The Imperial Church.

Might backfire, but has a better chance of avoiding the effective north/south split the Reformation caused in the Germanies than anything else.
 
This is one of my favorite topics right now! And one that I've done a fair amount of research for due to my (sadly abandoned) TL Appolinis et Diane and my Thirty Years war Habsburg victory TL that's in development. Basically the best opportunities for a Habsburg centralized HRE would be a Catholic victory in the Thirty Years' war or some kind of POD in the first half of the 18th century, the Austrian succession or Seven years' war being the absolute latest.

The first and best option is obviously a Habsburg victory in the Thirty years' war. For a significant part of the war the Imperialists were continuously victorious in campaign after campaign and by 1630 had more or less crushed all opposition within the Empire. The Emperor would be in the perfect position to restart the Imperial reforms of the previous century, like creating a common government, common taxes, a single law code, a standing army and navy, expanded law courts, ex ex.

It wouldn't happen overnight and there would be opposition but no Prince is in a position to revolt; the Saxons and Brandenburgians maybe, but neither really did much to directly oppose the Emperor OTL, more creating Leagues to keep the Habsburgs at the negotiating table. While the Empire obviously wouldn't end up with French-style centralization, I think a federated monarchy with the Emperor as an undisputed Sovereign is likely. I don't want to go into too much detail because I'm currently writing a TL on this subject, but its very possible.

The second option would involve a more natural evolution of the Empire, something that was slowly happening during roughly the first half of the 18th century. To get this one to happen you have to destroy any German rival to the Habsburgs. From what I can tell the best bet would be a longer-lived Josef I. He was basically the Austrian Sun King and in his short reign seemed to be aiming to create a German state. One of his actions was the apparent partition of Bavaria between Austria and the Palatinate. Now there's no direct evidence to support my theory but it certainly says a lot that he gave Upper Bavaria directly to the Elector Palatine and left Lower Bavaria sequestered under Imperial occupation. If Josef lived and indeed annexed Bavaria to the Habsburg Monarchy, then it basically doubles the Dynasty's power, influence and territory in the Empire and significantly weakens potential rivals, specifically the Wittelsbachs. It also gives the Emperor a new, or rather very old weapon: the deposition of Princes/nobles who go to war against the Monarchy.

Going with this would be either the early death of Friedrich the Great or even better have Friedrich still make a play for Silesia and get Prussia's ass kicked. That destroys the last internal rival to the Habsburg dynasty. However, a carrot/incentive has to go along with the Imperial stick, so loyal Princes should be given territories from the Pro-French states. Make sure the various Princes still see the Habsburgs as the guaranteers of their privileges, not the that Friedrich managed to present them as. In this case, I'm seeing something similar to the German Empire of the nineteenth century, only with the Habsburgs playing the role of the Hohenzollerns.
 
This is one of my favorite topics right now! And one that I've done a fair amount of research for due to my (sadly abandoned) TL Appolinis et Diane and my Thirty Years war Habsburg victory TL that's in development. Basically the best opportunities for a Habsburg centralized HRE would be a Catholic victory in the Thirty Years' war or some kind of POD in the first half of the 18th century, the Austrian succession or Seven years' war being the absolute latest.

The first and best option is obviously a Habsburg victory in the Thirty years' war. For a significant part of the war the Imperialists were continuously victorious in campaign after campaign and by 1630 had more or less crushed all opposition within the Empire. The Emperor would be in the perfect position to restart the Imperial reforms of the previous century, like creating a common government, common taxes, a single law code, a standing army and navy, expanded law courts, ex ex.

It wouldn't happen overnight and there would be opposition but no Prince is in a position to revolt; the Saxons and Brandenburgians maybe, but neither really did much to directly oppose the Emperor OTL, more creating Leagues to keep the Habsburgs at the negotiating table. While the Empire obviously wouldn't end up with French-style centralization, I think a federated monarchy with the Emperor as an undisputed Sovereign is likely. I don't want to go into too much detail because I'm currently writing a TL on this subject, but its very possible.

The second option would involve a more natural evolution of the Empire, something that was slowly happening during roughly the first half of the 18th century. To get this one to happen you have to destroy any German rival to the Habsburgs. From what I can tell the best bet would be a longer-lived Josef I. He was basically the Austrian Sun King and in his short reign seemed to be aiming to create a German state. One of his actions was the apparent partition of Bavaria between Austria and the Palatinate. Now there's no direct evidence to support my theory but it certainly says a lot that he gave Upper Bavaria directly to the Elector Palatine and left Lower Bavaria sequestered under Imperial occupation. If Josef lived and indeed annexed Bavaria to the Habsburg Monarchy, then it basically doubles the Dynasty's power, influence and territory in the Empire and significantly weakens potential rivals, specifically the Wittelsbachs. It also gives the Emperor a new, or rather very old weapon: the deposition of Princes/nobles who go to war against the Monarchy.

Going with this would be either the early death of Friedrich the Great or even better have Friedrich still make a play for Silesia and get Prussia's ass kicked. That destroys the last internal rival to the Habsburg dynasty. However, a carrot/incentive has to go along with the Imperial stick, so loyal Princes should be given territories from the Pro-French states. Make sure the various Princes still see the Habsburgs as the guaranteers of their privileges, not the that Friedrich managed to present them as. In this case, I'm seeing something similar to the German Empire of the nineteenth century, only with the Habsburgs playing the role of the Hohenzollerns.

Okay very interesting, I quite like the idea of Josef I playing the role of an Austrian Sun King, and should he or his son defeat Prussia during a Silesian War as it were, that's going to put all kinds of dampeners on the Prussians, and probably send France into a massive tail spin. I quite like that. In regards to the Wittelsbach family would they be compensated with anything, or have to rely on their cadet branches friendliness?
 
Okay very interesting, I quite like the idea of Josef I playing the role of an Austrian Sun King, and should he or his son defeat Prussia during a Silesian War as it were, that's going to put all kinds of dampeners on the Prussians, and probably send France into a massive tail spin. I quite like that. In regards to the Wittelsbach family would they be compensated with anything, or have to rely on their cadet branches friendliness?

Hard to say. Going by the Palatinate precedence from the Thirty Year's war, the Emperor is under no obligation to compensate the Bavarians and even if they are it would be some minor territory. Or you could see Josef tell the Wittelsbachs that they can compensate their deposed cousins if they wish because he won't be. Would be interesting to see if any of the other branches put their money where their mouths are.
 
How could one butterfly the reformation.

Don't know too much, but avoiding the events of the Babylonian Captivity might help.

Agree with the general focus of the others. Set Austria up so it is obviously the strongest of the various German states, far more than Prussia, etc. Maybe an altered Burgundian inheritance, or have those territories remain in the empire regardless, so that the Empire's border stays further west as well. (Lorraine et al remain separate from France). Have there be no other vessel for German nationalism besides the one state that controls 1/4-1/3 of Germany, plus vast tracts of land outside that have a more-than-insignificant German population, and German nationalism might shift to an HRE successor sense.
 
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