How To Get A Centralised Holy Roman Empire Under the Habsburgs?

So, I've seen it said on this community that the possibility of a centralised Holy Roman Empire existed well into the reign of Charles VI, and that it only really stopped during and after the War of Austrian Succession? I've seen others argue that the Thirty Years War was the nail in the coffin for a centralised empire.

So, my question is this, how does one get a centralised empire, when would be the latest date for it to be achieved and how what would the consequences be? Would such an empire be sustainable into the 20th and 21st centuries?
 
As a HRE fan, I did say the most likely event would be around the time of Rudolph and Albert, after all the earlier the better :^), other than that the absolute last would be either Philip the Handsome never getting into Spain, with an extremely lucky reign in which either the French or the Ottomans gets screwed so he focus in only one foreign problem in union with the Reformation so he can consolidate the reforms of his father. By the time of the Thirty Years War I did say it still posible, but very unlikely, any "centralization" would be more hegemonic than institutional, the imperial institutions (mostly based on "german liberties") were too consolidated and to do a complete overhaul would be in no one interests but the Emperor (in some cases not even him would be too eager to).

The main rival of the Habsburgs isn't the princes (in persona) or external enemies, but the fact when they finally got the Imperial office permanetly (as God said: "Charles VII was a mistake") the whole political theory inside the Empire wasn't to build a modern state in the mold of France and England.
 
As a HRE fan, I did say the most likely event would be around the time of Rudolph and Albert, after all the earlier the better :^), other than that the absolute last would be either Philip the Handsome never getting into Spain, with an extremely lucky reign in which either the French or the Ottomans gets screwed so he focus in only one foreign problem in union with the Reformation so he can consolidate the reforms of his father. By the time of the Thirty Years War I did say it still posible, but very unlikely, any "centralization" would be more hegemonic than institutional, the imperial institutions (mostly based on "german liberties") were too consolidated and to do a complete overhaul would be in no one interests but the Emperor (in some cases not even him would be too eager to).

The main rival of the Habsburgs isn't the princes (in persona) or external enemies, but the fact when they finally got the Imperial office permanetly (as God said: "Charles VII was a mistake") the whole political theory inside the Empire wasn't to build a modern state in the mold of France and England.

Okay interesting. By the time of the thirty years war, what do you mean by saying that any centralization would be hegemonic?
 
I've thought about this a far bit, and I think a late centralisation (i.e. 1700s and 1800s) is much more fun than the much earlier PODs others talk about. There was certainly an emerging sense of Germanness and fed-upness of "foreign invaders" screwing over the country during the 18th century, so this is what the Habsburgs would have to play on. The task for the Hasburgs is to play on this, while not undermining their legitimacy from a traditionalist point of view too much, or to have too many problems from the non-German parts of the empire.

For me there's several things needed:

1) As a starting point, you have to arrest the climb of Prussia. We've discussed this on this board many times, but the Seven Years War is a good time to do it, and you can also go further back. Once the Habsburgs are seen as the only candidate capable of uniting Germany, nationalists will project their ambitions on to them.

2) The non-German minorities need to be kept in check. One popular way to do this is to simply cut off Hungary with independence, but this does deprive the monarchy of tax revenues and troops and weaken its standing as a European power. My favoured approach is for Bavaria to be successfully annexed, altering the strategic internal balance. Maybe Hungary revolts and the combined weight of Austria and Bavaria puts them down, and fully breaks up the Hungarian united polity.

3) Establish a HRE unified military in times of war. This can be done after some egregious Russian or French intervention. Once the principle of all the states contributing troops to the Imperial Army has been added, there can later be ramifications for states not doing their national duty. A sense of national mythology should be established around this proud German army, flying colours etc.

5) Accept a nationalist demand for a national Imperial parliament to oversee the Emperor.

6) Establish a central treasury to pay for troops directly, after a war goes badly due to poor co-ordination between states.

Once you have an army, a parliament, an identity and a treasury, you're pretty much unstoppable on the way to centralisation.

EDITED to include full post.
 
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Well you need to get your Imperial Authority really high to Proclaim Erbkaisertum and Revoke the Privlegia... :p

Serious answer- A big Protestant loss in the Thirty Year's War could perhaps see a centralization of the states under the Habsburgs. This would require France or Sweden, maybe even both, taking several bad losses. Plausible, but unlikely.
 
I've thought about this a far bit, and I think a late centralisation (i.e. 1700s and 1800s) is much more fun than the much earlier PODs others talk about. There was certainly an emerging sense of Germanness and fed-upness of "foreign invaders" screwing over the country during the 18th century, so this is what the Habsburgs would have to play on. The task for the Hasburgs is to play on this, while not undermining their legitimacy from a traditionalist point of view too much, or to have too many problems from the non-German parts of the empire.

For me there's several things needed:

1) As a starting point, you have to arrest the climb of Prussia. We've discussed this on this board many times, but the Seven Years War is a good time to do it, and you can also go further back. Once the Habsburgs are seen as the only candidate capable of uniting Germany, nationalists will project their ambitions on to them.

2) The non-German minorities need to be kept in check. One popular way to do this is to simply cut off Hungary with independence, but this does deprive the monarchy of tax revenues and troops and weaken its standing as a European power. My favoured approach is for Bavaria to be successfully annexed, altering the strategic internal balance. Maybe Hungary revolts and the combined weight of Austria and Bavaria puts them down, and fully breaks up the Hungarian united polity.

3) Establish a HRE unified military in times of war. This can be done after some egregious Russian or French intervention. Once the principle of all the states contributing troops

Okay very interesting, could reform of the Austrian military and a better performance during the Polish War of Succession, plus perhaps avoiding a war of austrian succession through Joseph I either surviving and leaving behind legitimate male issue, or Charles VI having legitimate male issue, also help in this case?
 
I've got a question.What exactly was the perks of being emperor during the late Middle Ages to the early modern period?Was there any materialistic benefit in the form of taxes and troop contribution from the German states?
 
Okay interesting. By the time of the thirty years war, what do you mean by saying that any centralization would be hegemonic?
Rather than having an unified polity you have the Emperor as the top prince keeping the other ones down, something like Shogunate Japan and the Han system, of course said process would be less than stable and with France, Sweden, the Netherlands, etc creeping in it creates a less than favorable situation.

There was certainly an emerging sense of Germanness and fed-upness of "foreign invaders" screwing over the country during the 18th century

This is a point you need to be very careful to not mix up some notions, surely there was a sense of Germaness among the princes since the Late Middle Ages, hence why Francis I bid for Emperorship went nowhere, but the concept of Nationalism as people with common history, traditions and/or languages should unite under a single state was something really alien to the Ancien Régime the HRE was tied, in fact the whole notion of Germaness had to do with German liberties and the status quo of the Empire as a patchwork of pretty much independent states, Jakob Moser (pretty much the father of German liberalism) even said "Germany is governed the German way" to describe the situation.

Mind you, Alte Fritz did form a league late in his life to reform the HRE, but said reforms had at heart the objective of conserving the German liberties, this shows how the political theory of Germany was (I don't have Heart of Europe right now so I can't be rich in details about this one).

1) As a starting point, you have to arrest the climb of Prussia. We've discussed this on this board many times, but the Seven Years War is a good time to do it, and you can also go further back. Once the Habsburgs are seen as the only candidate capable of uniting Germany, nationalists will project their ambitions on to them.

A rival is surely troublesome when we are talking about a hegemonic empire, but by the 1760s the central structure of the HRE had already decayed too much, either by Westphalia, French encroachment, Charles VI's reign and the whole WotASS, the Habsburg Empire being the sole German great power may lead it to unified the Little Germanies in the advent of something similar to OTL French Revolution and the Victorian Age, but the HRE itself is too crumbled to salvage.

2) The non-German minorities need to be kept in check. One popular way to do this is to simply cut off Hungary with independence, but this does deprive the monarchy of tax revenues and troops and weaken its standing as a European power. My favoured approach is for Bavaria to be successfully annexed, altering the strategic internal balance. Maybe Hungary revolts and the combined weight of Austria and Bavaria puts them down, and fully breaks up the Hungarian united polity.

Hmm, on a rather detached note, Hungary wasn't part of the HRE, but in personal union with the other Habsburg domains (like Austria, Styria, Bohemia, etc.), Hungary only became a mere unit of a state with Francis I declaration of Empire.

3) Establish a HRE unified military in times of war. This can be done after some egregious Russian or French intervention. Once the principle of all the states contributing troops to the Imperial Army has been added, there can later be ramifications for states not doing their national duty. A sense of national mythology should be established around this proud German army, flying colours etc.

There was already an "Imperial Army" in the form of the Reichsarmee first created by Sigismund and the Kaiserlich Armee which was personal of the Emperor but had recruits and commanders from across the Empire, in fact during the War of the Polish Succession despite Great Britain not taking part of the conflict Hanover still supplied troops to fight the French in the Rhineland. However here comes the trouble: in the case of a standing Reichsarmee, who is the charge? The Emperor? That's a no-oh, the Princes are definitely blocking this as they don't want the Kaiser steamrolling them with their own men. The Diet? Another problem, the Diet was never a truly functional organ and had too much institutional problems, most in the form of really vague laws open to a myriad of interpretations, I mean the Empire had an army, but the Emperor had his own too, it was okay.

5) Accept a nationalist demand for a national Imperial parliament to oversee the Emperor.

Maximilian I already tried it with the Reichsregiment, didn't work out, the Princes tried use it to hold the Emperor to their will and Max didn't like how powerless he was to his own reforms, no consensus happened, but the Reformation did, in the end it failed and was forgotten, I doubt either Joseph, his son or Charles VI's son is going to revive it, specially in the age of absolutism.

6) Establish a central treasury to pay for troops directly, after a war goes badly due to poor co-ordination between states.

Once again: Maximilian tried with the Common Penny (Reichspfennig), it ran in trouble too, first the Swiss refused and BTFO Max, showing the other Princes it was a joke and they didn't have to pay it too, in fact even the Spanish Habsburgs didn't pay it when Rudolph II didn't send help against the Dutch (dude had already enough trouble with the Ottomans).

Mind you, the Princes still paid some stuff, and it did finance (somewhat) wars against France, the Turks during even the 18th century, but once it stopped (the Ottomans made peace and France allied with the Habsburgs) it stopped, the treat was gone, back to the usual stuff with liberties and shit.

Just to make sure I didn't come as a negativist asshole: maybe the HRE was salvageable in the 18th century (I'm by no mean an authority in the subject, let alone an expert), but I just wanted to point out how the overall structure and ideologies ruling over the Empire prevented (or rather were hindrances) to centralization, mind you the Empire was already "unified" in some sense, there was the Diet, the Chambers of Justice and other institutions, in other note even after two (or three) wars against the Habsburgs the Prussians never left the Empire in the same fashion as the Swiss and the Italians, showing that an identity already existed, but it was not related to a central government.
 
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Sulemain

Banned
I'm re-reading Peter Wilson's magisterial history of the HRE, and the point he constantly makes is that the HRE's purpose was the maintenance of local, peculiar liberties and interests. It was an Estates-State much more then a Nation-State. A centralised HRE really defeats the point of the thing, and honestly it would really be a German Empire by another name by that point.
 
A centralised HRE really defeats the point of the thing, and honestly it would really be a German Empire by another name by that point.
But that's the point of the question, to transform the HRE from a nominally centralized confederation into a centralized kingdom.
 

Sulemain

Banned
But that's the point of the question, to transform the HRE from a nominally centralized confederation into a centralized kingdom.

In that case, some-sort of federalism is almost certainly going to be needed. And you're probably going to see several areas break away rather then come up the centralised rule of the Hapsburgs. If we're looking at a 18th Century or later POD, something like West Germany plus Czechnia and Austria, minus Hanover, is probably the resultant state.
 
I'm re-reading Peter Wilson's magisterial history of the HRE, and the point he constantly makes is that the HRE's purpose was the maintenance of local, peculiar liberties and interests. It was an Estates-State much more then a Nation-State. A centralised HRE really defeats the point of the thing, and honestly it would really be a German Empire by another name by that point.
The Empire did become an "Estate-State" as a consequence of its development, but it isn't inevitable, though its hard to avoid by the Habsburg era (less so in 1300, more during the late 15th century).

I do agree with the "German empire" bit, which was a point in my earlier post, a nationalistic evolution in the HRE during the 18th century would lead to its re-branding as a Germanic Empire rather than a Holy Roman one.
 
To various people above, I agree that the HRE as constituted was not salvageable. What would be needed is aggrandisement and setting the foundations of Austrian predominance in the 18th century, for a nationalist wave to be ridden by an emperor or three in the 19th. Just as the little Germanies submitted to Prussia in OTL they could submit to major imperial reforms in TTL. It would all be in the name of keeping decent Germans safe from French depradations and Asiatic Russian hordes.
 
Would Joseph I be better suited to such a task than his brother?

I don't know. Joseph has gone down in history very negatively, because he overplayed his hand. It's possible that with a stronger hand (i.e. more Germans in the Empire, a longer reign), he could have pulled off his reforms, but I don't know enough about him to know whether his abilities have been unfairly judged or not based on the outcome.
 
I don't know. Joseph has gone down in history very negatively, because he overplayed his hand. It's possible that with a stronger hand (i.e. more Germans in the Empire, a longer reign), he could have pulled off his reforms, but I don't know enough about him to know whether his abilities have been unfairly judged or not based on the outcome.

Alright interesting, why's he gone down negatively? As far as I know he had some good success early on during his reign as part of the War of Spanish Succession. I suppose his affairs etc were a bit much.
 
Alright interesting, why's he gone down negatively? As far as I know he had some good success early on during his reign as part of the War of Spanish Succession. I suppose his affairs etc were a bit much.

Most of the Habsburg lands were near open revolt because he offended the non-German minorities so much. Leopold had to spend most his time touring round to conciliate everyone afterwards. Perhaps if Joseph had pulled off Bavarian annexation, it could have swung the balance, but I suspect a civil war was on the cards either way.
 
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