How to destroy the Papacy in the 11th Century?

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Normans couldnt be powerful enough to become independent?

Not easily. Certainly not as just Normandy.

No Theocratic Cathar Council can happen?

No basis for it. And I'm not even sure religiously it would work.


What do you mean?

The borders are fine, just not the idea of it being Zoroastrian this late.



Iffy about it.

But they cant expand north to defend there region from the Rus Pagans or the Pechenegs??

Not so much "can't" as "wouldn't".

There's nothing to be gained by it in terms of making it more defensible.
 

Onyx

Banned
Not easily. Certainly not as just Normandy.

ITS A RISK IM WILLING TO TAKE!!!!!


No basis for it. And I'm not even sure religiously it would work.

Really? I mean the whole Cathar Crusade was like a bloody guerilla war or if Im exagerrating, a stagnated crusade. It was pretty brutal and defensive the Cathars were


The borders are fine, just not the idea of it being Zoroastrian this late.

Im sure there can be a way Neo-Zoroastrian can survive to this era, though very different and probably fusioned with Islamic ideals


Iffy about it.

images




Not so much "can't" as "wouldn't".

There's nothing to be gained by it in terms of making it more defensible

Keep religion, connecting trade roads/routes, little things like that
 
ITS A RISK IM WILLING TO TAKE!!!!!

But it's probably not a risk William is.

Really? I mean the whole Cathar Crusade was like a bloody guerilla war or if Im exagerrating, a stagnated crusade. It was pretty brutal and defensive the Cathars were

It stagnated from lack of consistent support, not guerillia warfare - and nonCathars fought with Raymond of Toulouse and the lord of Trevencal whose name escapes me.

Im sure there can be a way Neo-Zoroastrian can survive to this era, though very different and probably fusioned with Islamic ideals

Talk to ImmortalImpi about this, he knows more about Iran than I do.


Keep religion, connecting trade roads/routes, little things like that

Trade routes are by sea. Religion . . . is not influenced here.
 
I'm sure there can be a way Neo-Zoroastrian can survive to this era, though very different and probably fused with Islamic ideals
Hmm.... From what I have researched, there were a few pockets of Zoroastrian resistance to the Caliphates past the Alborz Range in Mazandaran. It was called the Bavand Dynasty, but seems to have converted to Shi'a Islam around 860 CE. There were also the Alavids to whom the Bavanids swore fealty to against the Caliphate, but were wiped out in 943 CE. The current rulers of Mazandaran as of 1000 CE are the Ziyarid Emirs, a Daylamite Dynasty that was ruled by Anushirvan Sharaf by the Seljuk invasions of the 1040s, which was invaded by the Ghaznavids (since they failed to pay tribute) and then the Seljuks and conquered in 1043 CE. If the Seljuk state was never created (or restricted to Central Asia), I believe the Ghaznavids would shortly conquer them anyways by 1045 CE.

As for Zoroastrianism mixing ideologies with Islam, this page speaks for itself. It's just not gonna happen, unfortunately.

I'll answer your other questions shortly.
 
The Macedonian dynasty is an example of a popular and capable dynasty, but Romanus II usurping the throne and all but pushing Constantine VII out of the picture indicates just how much weight "hereditary weight" had.

Romanus I? Romanus II was Constantine VII's son.
 
I remember hearing, Elfwine, that the Seljuk's energy could've been spent elsewhere in Central Asia. Who's currently dominating the Khwarezm north of their location c.1000CE?
 
I remember hearing, Elfwine, that the Seljuk's energy could've been spent elsewhere in Central Asia. Who's currently dominating the Khwarezm north of their location c.1000CE?

The Karakhand Turks it seems, judging by the New Penguin Atlas of Medieval History.

Although the Ghaznavids have taken it by 1030.
 
And now it's time for walls of exposition of the Middle East around this time!

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(I also found this one here)

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The Seljuqs (our PoD)
Seljuk (Turkish: Selçuk, Arabic: سلجوق; also Seldjuk, Seldjuq, Seljuq) (died ca. 1038) was the eponymous hero of the Seljuq Turks. He was the son of a certain Duqaq surnamed Timuryaligh (meaning "of the iron bow") and either the chief or an eminent member from the Kınık tribe of the Oghuz Turks. In 985, the Seljuq clan split off from the bulk of the Tokuz-Oghuz,[citation needed] a confederacy of nine clans long settled between the Aral and Caspian Seas. They set up camp on the right bank of the lower Syr Darya (Jaxartes), in the direction of Jend, near Kzyl Orda in present day south-central Kazakhstan where they converted to Islam.[1]
The biblical names of his four sons - Mikâîl (Michael), Isrâîl (Israel), Mûsâ (Moses), and Yûnus (Jonah) - suggest previous acquaintance with either Khazar Judaism or Nestorian Christianity.[2] According to some sources, Seljuk began his career as an officer in the Khazar army.[3]
Under Mikail's sons Tuğrul and Çağrı the Seljuqs migrated into Khurasan. Ghaznavid attempts to stop Seljuqs raiding the local Muslim populace led to the Battle of Dandanaqan on 23 May 1040. Victorious Seljuqs became masters of Khurasan, expanding their power into Transoxiana and across Iran. By 1055 Tuğrul had expanded his control all the way to Baghdad, setting himself up as the champion of the Abbasid caliph, who honored him with the title sultan. Earlier rulers may have used this title but the Seljuqs seem to have been the first to inscribe it on their coins.[4]
As you may know, the Seljuq Turks would never have come to greatness if it weren't for the endeavors of Toghrul beg and his brother Chaghri. So if we were to kill them off at the Siege of Merv in 1029, it would cause their grandfather Seljuk to soon afterwards die a broken man (for he loved his favorite grandchildren) and would lead to the fragmentation and disunity of the Seljuk tribes, allowing their Oghuz neighbors to quickly defeat and absorb the Seljuks back into their domain. The battle of Dandanaqan would never have happened, along with everything else. Or should the brothers flee from the Ghaznavids in 1025 to Volga Bulgaria instead of back to the Khorasan?

The Oghuz Yabgu Turks
(Hostile to the Seljuqs, Khwarezmians and Volga Bulgaria, friendly with the Ghaznavids)
The Turkmen also known as Oguzes (a linguistic term designating the Western Turkic or Oghuz languages from the Oghur languages) were a historical Turkic tribal confederation conventionally named Oghuz Yabgu State in Central Asia during the early medieval period. The name Oguz is a Common Turkic word for "tribe". The Oguz confederation migrated westard from the Jeti-su area after a conflict with Karluk branch of Uigurs. The founders of the Ottoman Empire were descendants of the Oguz Yabgu State.
In the 9th century, the Oguzes from the Aral steppes drove Bechens from the Emba and Ural River region toward the west. In the 10th century they inhabited the steppe of the rivers Sari-su, Turgai, and Emba to the north of Lake Balkhash of modern day Kazakhstan.[1] A clan of this nation, the Seljuks, embraced Islam and in the 11th century entered Persia, where they founded the Great Seljuk Empire. Similarly, in the 11th century a Tengriist Oghuz clan—referred to as Uzes or Torks in the Russian chronicles—overthrew Pecheneg supremacy in the Russian steppe. Harried by another Turkic horde, the Kipchaks—a branch of the Kimaks of the middle Irtysh or of the Ob—these Oghuz penetrated as far as the lower Danube, crossed it and invaded the Balkans, where they were either crushed[2] or struck down by an outbreak of plague, causing the survivors either to flee or to join the Byzantine imperial forces as mercenaries (1065).[3]
The Oghuz seem to have been related to the Pechenegs, some of whom were clean-shaven and others of whom had small 'goatee' beards. According to the book Attila and the Nomad Hordes, "Like the Kimaks they set up many carved wooden funerary statues surrounded by simple stone balbal monoliths."[4] The authors of the book go on to note that "Those Uzes or Torks who settled along the Russian frontier were gradually Slavicized though they also played a leading role as cavalry in twelfth and early thirteenth century Russian armies where they were known as Black Hats.... Oghuz warriors served in almost all Islamic armies of the Middle East from the eleventh century onwards, in Byzantium from the ninth century, and even in Spain and Morocco."[4] In later centuries, they adapted and applied their own traditions and institutions to the ends of the Islamic world and emerged as empire-builders with a constructive sense of statecraft.
Linguistically, the Oghuz are listed together with the old Kimaks of the middle Yenisei of the Ob, the old Kipchaks who later emigrated to southern Russia, and the modern Kirghiz in one particular Turkic group, distinguished from the rest by the mutation of the initial y sound to j (dj).
"The term 'Oghuz' was gradually supplanted among the Turks themselves by Türkmen, 'Turcoman', from the mid tenth century on, a process which was completed by the beginning of the thirteenth."

The militarism that the Oghuz empires were very well known for was rooted in their centuries-long nomadic lifestyle. In general they were a herding society which possessed certain military advantages that sedentary societies did not have, particularly mobility. Alliances by marriage and kinship, and systems of "social distance" based on family relationships were the connective tissues of their society.
In Oghuz traditions, "society was simply the result of the growth of individual families". But such a society also grew by alliances and the expansion of different groups, normally through marriages. The shelter of the Oghuz tribes was a tent-like dwelling, erected on wooden poles and covered with skin, felt, or hand-woven textiles, which is called a yurt.
Their cuisine included yahni (stew), kebabs, Toyga çorbası (lit. "wedding soup;" a soup made from wheat flour and yogurt), Kımız (a traditional drink of the Turks, made from fermented horse milk), Pekmez (a syrup made of boiled grape juice) and helva made with wheat starch or rice flour, tutmac (noodle soup), yufka (flattened bread), katmer (layered pastry), chorek (ring-shaped buns), bread, clotted cream, cheese, milk and ayran (diluted yogurt beverage), as well as wine.
Social order was maintained by emphasizing "correctness in conduct as well as ritual and ceremony." Ceremonies brought together the scattered members of the society to celebrate birth, puberty, marriage, and death. Such ceremonies had the effect of minimizing social dangers and also of adjusting persons to each other under controlled emotional conditions.
Patrilineally related men and their families were regarded as a group with rights over a particular territory and were distinguished from neighbours on a territorial basis. Marriages were often arranged among territorial groups so that neighbouring groups could become related, but this was the only organizing principle that extended territorial unity. Each community of the Oghuz Turks was thought of as part of a larger society composed of distant as well as close relatives. This signified "tribal allegiance." Wealth and materialistic objects were not commonly emphasized in Oghuz society and most remained herders, and when settled they would be active in agriculture.
Status within the family was based on age, gender, relationships by blood, or marriageability. Males as well as females were active in society, yet men were the backbones of leadership and organization. According to the Book of Dede Korkut which demonstrates the culture of the Oghuz Turks, women were "expert horse riders, archers, and athletes." The elders were respected as repositories of both "secular and spiritual wisdom."

In the 8th century, the Oghuz Turks made a new home and domain for themselves in the area between the Caspian and Aral seas, a region that is often referred to as Transoxiana, the western portion of Turkestan. They had moved westward from the Altay mountains passing through the Siberian steppes and settled in this region, and also penetrated into southern Russia and the Volga from their bases in west China.
In his accredited work titled Diwan Lughat al-Turk, Mahmud of Kashgar, a Turkic scholar of the 11th century, described the Karachuk Mountains which are located just east of the Aral Sea as the original homeland of the Oghuz Turks. The Karachuk mountains are now known as the Tengri Tagh (Tian Shan in Chinese) Mountains, and they are adjacent to Syr Darya.
The extension from the Karachuk Mountains towards the Caspian Sea (Transoxiana) was called the "Oghuz Steppe Lands" from where the Oghuz Turks established trading, religious and cultural contacts with the Abbasid Arab caliphate who ruled to the south. This is around the same time that they first converted to Islam and renounced their Tengriism belief system. The Arab historians mentioned that the Oghuz Turks in their domain in Transoxiana were ruled by a number of kings and chieftains.
The Oguz State played an important role in the military and political history of Eurasia.
In 965 the Oguz State allied with the Kievan Rus in a war against the Khazar Kaganate. In 985 the alliance with Kievan Rus inflicted a defeat on the Volga Bulgaria, which increased the political power of the Oguz State.
At the turn of the 10th-11th centuries in the state rose popular uprisings against excessive taxation. The revolts became especially strong in the second half of the 10th century, during a rule of Ali Yabgu. The split between the ruling Oguzes and Seljuk branch of Oguzes turned out to be detrimental to the state. The upheaval was used by the Seljuk branch, who led the uprising and took Jent, but soon they were forced to leave the Jent area.
During the reign of the last Oguz Yabgu Shahmalik the state rebound. In 1041 Shahmalik Yabgu conquered Khorezm form the Ghaznavids, but two years later he was captured by the Seljuk forces and executed. Shahmalik Yabgu was the last ruler of the Oguz State.
The internal turmoils and fights with Seljuk Oguz branch weakened the Oguz State. The weakened state fell under onslaught of the Kipchak tribes from the Kimak Kaganate. Under the pressure of the Kipchaks, the two branches of the Oguz people split, a significant part of the Oguzes went to the Eastern Europe, and Seljuk Oguzes left toward the Asia Minor. Another part of Oguzes fell under the rule of Karahanids and Seljuk rulers of Khorasan. The remnants of the defeated by the Kipchaks local Oguzes subsequently dissolved among the Turkic-speaking tribes of Dasht-e-Kipchak. The Oguz tribes contributed to the formation of many of today's Turkic people.
So basically they shall absorb the Seljuks back into their fold once the brothers are dead.

The Qara-Khanid Khanates (Mixed relations with the Ghaznavids, Oghuz Turks, etc.)

The Kara-Khanid Khanate was a confederation of Turkic tribes ruled by a dynasty known in literature as the Karakhanids (also spelt Qarakhanids) or Ilek Khanids, (Uzbek: Qoraxoniylar xoqonligi, Turkish: Karahanlılar, Kazakh: Қарахан мемлекеті, Persian: قَراخانيان‎, Qarākhānīyān or خاقانيه‎, Khakānīya, Chinese: 黑汗, 桃花石).[1] Both dynastic names represent titles with Kara Kağan being the most important Turkish title up till the end of the dynasty.[2] The Khanate conquered Transoxania in Central Asia and ruled between 999–1211.[3][4] Their arrival in Transoxania signaled a definitive shift from Iranian to Turkic predominance in Central Asia.[5] Their capitals included Kashgar, Balasagun, Uzgen and Samarkand. Their history is reconstructed from fragmentary and often contradictory written sources, as well as studies on their coinage.[6]
The Karluks were a nomadic people from western Altai who moved to Semirechye. In 742CE, the Karluks were part of an alliance led by the Basmyl and Uyghurs, which rebelled against the Kök Türk rulers.[8] In the realignment of power which followed, the Karluks were elevated from a tribe led by an el teber to one led by a yabghu; yabghu being one of the highest Turkic dignitaries which also implies membership of the Ashina clan in whom the "heaven-mandated" right to rule resided. The Karluks and Uyghurs later allied themselves against the Basmyl, and within two years the Karluks and Uyghurs toppled the Basmyl khagan. The Uyghur yabghu became khagan and the Karluk leader yabghu. This arrangement lasted less than a year. Hostilities between the Uyghur and Karluk forced the Karluk to migrate westward into the western Türk-Türgesh lands.[7]
By 766 The Karluks had forced the submission of the Western Türk-Türgesh and they established their capital at Suyab on the Chu River. The Karluk confederation by now included the Chigil and Tukshi tribes who may have been Türgesh tribes incorporated into the Karluk union. By the mid 9th century, the Karluk confederation had gained control of the sacred lands of the Western Türks after the destruction of the Uyghur state by the Kyrgyz. The control of the sacred lands, together with being affiliated with the Ashina clan, allowed the Khaganate to be passed on to the Karluks along with domination of the steppes after the previous Khagan was killed in a revolt.[9]
During the 9th century southern Central Asia was under the rule of the Samanids, while the Central Asian steppe was dominated by Turkic nomads such as the Pechenegs, the Oghuz, and the Karluks. The Karluks' domain reached as far north as the Irtysh and the Kimek confederation, with encampments extending to the Chi and Ili rivers, where the Chigil and Tukshi tribes lived, and east to the Ferghana valley and beyond. South and East of the Karluks was inhabited by the Yaghma.[10] The Karluk center in the 9th and 10th centuries appears to be have been at Balasagun on the Chu River. In late 9th century the Samanids marched into the Steppes and captured Taraz, one of the headquarters of the Karluk khagan, and a large church was transformed into a mosque.
During the 9th century, the Karluk confederation (including the Türgesh descended Chigil and Tukshi tribes) and the Yaghma, possible descendants of the Toquz-oguz, joined force and formed the first Karluk-Karakhanid khaganate. The Chigils appear to have formed the nucleus of the Karakhanid army. The date of its foundation and the name of its first khan is uncertain, but according to one reconstruction, the first Karakhanid ruler was Bilge Kür Kadïr Khan.[11] The rulers of the Karakhanids were likely to be from the Chigil and Yaghma tribes - the Eastern Khagan bore the title Arslan Qara Khaqan (Arslan "lion" was the totem of the Chigil) and the Western Khagan the title Bughra Qara Khaqan (Bughra "male camel" was the totem of the Yaghma). The names of animals were a regular element in the Turkish titles of the Karakhanids: thus Aslan (lion), Bughra (camel), Toghan (falcon), Böri (wolf), Toghrul or Toghrïl (a bird of prey), etc.[6] Under the Khagans were four rulers with the titles Arslan Ilig, Bughra Ilig, Arslan Tegin and Bughra Tegin.[11] The titles of the members of the dynasty changed with their changing position, normally upwards, in the dynastic hierarchy.
In the mid-10th century the Kara-Khanids converted to Islam and adopted Muslim names and honorifics, but retained Turkic regnal titles such as Khan, Khagan, Ilek (Ilig) and Tegin.[6] Later they adopted Arab titles sultan and sultān al-salātīn (sultan of sultans). According to the Ottoman historian known as Munajjim-bashi, a Karakhanid prince named Satuk Bughra Khan was the first of the khans to convert. After conversion, he obtained a fatwa which permitted him in effect to kill his presumably still pagan father, after which he conquered Kashgar.[12] Later in 960, according to Muslim historians Ibn Miskawaih and Ibn al-Athir, there was a mass conversion of the Turks (reportedly "200,000 tents of the Turks"), circumstantial evidence suggests these were the Karakhanids.[7]
At the final decade of the 10th century, the Karakhanids began a struggle against the Samanids for control of Transoxiana, with first a campaign led by d Satuk Bughra Khan's grandson Hasan (or Harun) b. Sulayman (title: Bughra Khan). Between 990-992, the Karakhanids took Isfijab, Ferghana, Ilaq, Samarkand, and the Samanid capital Bukhara. However, Hasan Bughra Khan died in 992 due to an illness, and the Samanids returned to Bukhara. Hasan's cousin Ali b. Musa (title: Kara Khan or Arslan Khan) resumed the campaign against the Samanids, and in 999, Ali's son Nasr retook Bukhara meeting little resistance.[6] The Samanid domains were split up between the Ghaznavids, who gained Khorasan and Afghanistan, and the Karakhanids, who received Transoxiana; the Oxus River thus became the boundary between the two rival empires.
The Karakhanid state was divided into appanages as was common of Turkic and Mongol nomads. The Karakhanid appanages were associated with four principal urban centers, Balasaghun (then the capital of the Karakhanid state) in Semirechye, Kashgar in Xinjiang (Kashgaria), Uzgen in Fergana, and Samarkand in Transoxiana. The dynasty's original domains of Semirechye and Kashgaria conserved their prestige within the Karakhanid state, and the khagans of these domains retained an implicit seniority over those who ruled in Transoxiana and Fergana.[5] The four sons of Ali (Ahmad, Nasr, Mansur, Muhammad) each held their own independent appanage within the Karakhanid state. Nasr, the conqueror of Transoxiana, held the large central area of Transoxiana (Samarkand and Bukhara), Fergana (Uzgen) and other areas, although after his death his appanage was further divided. Ahmad held Semirechye and Chach, and became the head of the dynasty after the death of Ali. He was succeeded by Mansur.[6]
After the death of Mansur, the Hasan Bughra Khan branch of the Karakhanids became dominant. Hasan's sons Muhammad Toghan Khan II, and Yusuf Kadir Khan who held Kashgar, became in turn the head of the Karakhanid dynasty. The two families, i.e. the descendents of Ali Arslan Khan and Hasan Bughra Khan, would eventually spilt the Karakhanid Khanate in two.
During the reign of Ahmad b. Ali, the Karakhanids engaged in wars against the non-Muslims to the North-East and East. In 1006, Yusuf Kadr Khan of Kashgar conquered the Kingdom of Khotan.[13] In 1017-1018, the Karakhanids repelled an attack by a large mass of nomadic Turkish tribes, in what was described in Muslim sources as a great victory.[14] The brothers Ahmad and Nasr conducted different policies towards the Ghaznavids in the South - while Ahmad tried to form alliance with Mahmud of Ghazna, Nasr attempted to expand, unsuccessfully, into the territories held by Ghazvanids.[6]
Early in the 11th century the unity of the Karakhanid dynasty was fractured by frequent internal warfare that eventually resulted in the formation of two independent Karakhanid states. A son of Hasan Bughra Khan, Ali Tegin, seized control of Bukhara and other towns. He expanded his territory further after the death of Mansur. The son of Nasr, Ibrahim Tamghach Bughra Khan, later waged war against the sons of Ali Tegin, and won control of large part of Transoxania, and made Samarkand the capital. In 1041, another son of Nasr b. Ali, Muhammad 'Ayn ad-Dawlah (reigned 1041–52) took over the administration of the western branch of the family that eventually led to a formal separation of the Kharakhanid Khanate. Ibrahim Tamghach Khan was considered by Muslim historians as a great ruler, and he brought some stability to Western Karakhanid Khanate by limiting the appanage system which caused much of the internal strife in the Kara-Khanid Khanate.[6]
The Hasan family remained in control of the Eastern Khanate. The Eastern Khanate had its capital at Balasaghun and later Kashgar. The Ferghana-Semirechye areas became the border between the two states and were frequently contested. When the two states were formed, Ferghana fell into realm of the Eastern Khanate, but was later captured by Ibrahim and became part of Western Khanate.
The 11th century saw the rise of Seljuks. They first defeated the Ghaznavids at the Battle of Dandanaqan, then entered Iran. The Karakhanids were able to withstand the Seljuks initially, and briefly took control of Seljuk towns in Khurasan. The Karakhanids, however, developed serious conflicts with the religious classes (the ulama). In 1089 during the reign of Ibrahim's grandson Ahmad b. Khidr, at the request of the ulama of Transoxiana, the Seljuks entered and took control of Samarkand, together with the domains belonging to the Western Khanate. The Western Karakhanids Khanate became a vassal of the Seljuks for half a century, and the rulers of the Western Khanate were largely whoever the Seljuks chose to place on the throne. Ahmad b. Khidr was returned to the throne by the Seljuks, but in 1095, the ulama accused Ahmad of heresy and managed to secured his execution.[6]
The Karakhanids of Kashgar also declared their submission following a Seljuk campaign into Talas and Semirechye, but the Eastern Khanate was a Seljuk vassal for only a short time. At the beginning of 12th century they invaded Transoxiana and even occupied the Seljuk town of Termez for a time.[6]
The takeover by the Karakhanids did not changed essentially the Iranian character of Central Asia, but it set into motion a demographic and ethnolinguistic shift. During the Karakhanid era, the local population became increasingly Turkic in speech - initially the shift was linguistic with the local people adopting Turkic speech, then the poorer Turks also began to settle.[19] While over the centuries Central Asia became Turkicized, culturally the Turks came close to being Persianized or, in certain respects, Arabicized.[5] The Karakhanids became Persianized to the extent of adopting the "Afrasiab"[citation needed], a Shahnameh mythical figure as the ancestor of their lineage. Nevertheless, the official or court language used in Kashgar and other Karakhanid centers, referred to as "Khaqani" (royal), remained Turkic. The language was partly based on dialects spoken by the Turkic tribes that made up the Karakhanids and possessed qualities of linear descend from the Kök and Uyghur Turkic. The Turkic script was also used for all documents and correspondence of the khaqans according to Dīwānu l-Luġat al-Turk.[20]
The Dīwānu l-Luġat al-Turk (Dictionary of Languages of the Turks) was written by a prominent Karakhanid historian Mahmud al-Kashgari who may have lived for some time in Kashgar at the Karakhanid court. He wrote this first comprehensive dictionary of Turkic languages in Arabic for the Caliphs of Baghdad in 1072-76. Another famous Karakhanid writer was Yusuf Balasaghuni who wrote Kutadgu Bilig (The Wisdom of Felicity), an important but the only known literary work written in Turkic from the Karakhanid period.[20] Kutadgu Bilig is a form of advice literature known as mirrors for princes.[21] The Turkic identity is evident in both of these pieces of work but they also showed the influences of Persian and Islamic culture.
Islam and its civilization flourished under the Karakhanids. One earliest example of madrasas in Central Asia was founded in Samarkand by Ibrahim Tamghach Khan. Ibrahim also founded a hospital to care for sick as well as providing shelter for the poor.[6] His son Nasr Shams al-Mulk built ribats for the caravanserais on the route between Bukhara and Samarkand, and a palace near Bukhara. Some of the buildings constructed by the Karakhanids still survive today - for example the Kalyan minaret built by Mohammad Aslan Khan beside the main mosque in Bukhara, and three mausolea in Uzgend. The early Karakhanid rulers, as nomads, lived not in the city but in an army encampment outside the capital, and while by the time of Ibrahim the Karakhanids still maintained a nomadic tradition, their extensive religious and civil constructions showed that the culture and traditions of the settled population of Transoxiana had become assimilated.[6]
Kara-Khanid legacy is arguably the most enduring cultural heritage among coexisting cultures in Central Asia from the 9th to the 13th century. The Karluk-Uyghur dialect spoken by the nomadic tribes and turkified sedentary populations under Kara-Khanid rule branched out into two major branches of the Turkic language family, the Chagatay and the Kypchak. The Kara-Khanid cultural model that combined nomadic Turkic culture with Islamic, sedentary institutions spread east into former Kara-Khoja and Tangut territories and west and south into the subcontinent, Khorasan (Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Northern Iran), Golden Horde territories (Tataristan) and Turkey. The Chagatay, Timurid and Uzbek states and societies inherited most of the cultures of the Kara-Khanids and the Khwarezmians without much interruption.
When the Kara-Khanids split in 1040 into a western and eastern state, I wonder if the Eastern Kara-Khanids can go back to being Tengriist?

The Kimek and Kypchak Qaghanates

The once glorious Qaghanate of Kimeks suffers disintegration. That greatest steppic confederation of nomadic tribes had been left by two most ambitious groups that migrated south and west in search for new homeland. The first group of nomads marched down to the northern shore of Syr Darya and Lake Balkhash founded Qipchaks Khanate with capital in Syghnaq. The second group took longer trip westwards, crossed the Embe river and crushed the Oghuz who withdrew to dry steppes of Mangyshlak Peninsula. Then they crossed Yaik river further west, where they gained another win, this time over a coalition of Pechenegs and Bashkirs. And they settled here, took into possession this fertile steppe between northern Black and Caspian Seas and founded Qumans Khanate. But the once powerful Kimek Qaghanate still persist, still occupies a vast land, though those are only wilderness inhabited by few nomads that are no threat for anyone now.
From 840 to 916 the Kimak Kaganate dominated the heartland of Asia, controlled a key central portion of the Silk Road, and influenced events from China to Persia and Europe, on a par with the Scythians and Mongols. The Kimak polity can now be seen for what it was: one of the great pastoral nomadic empires of all time.[4]
After the 840 AD breakup of the Uyghur Kaganate, the Central Asian tribes found themselves unattached. Portions of the Turkic Eymür, Bayandur and Tatar tribes joined the core of the Kimak tribes. The Tatar tribes already were members of the Kimak confederation, some of them had already participated in the initial formation of the Kimak Kaganate. The Kipchaks also had their Khanlyk, but politically they were dependent from Kimaks. The dominating Kimak tribe mostly lived on the banks of Irtysh. The Kipchaks, described by Hudud al-Alam, occupied a separate territory located to the west, approximately in the southeastern part of the Southern Urals. Chinese chroniclers wrote about the mountains of the Kipchak land, in the chronicle Üan-shi these mountains are named Üyli-Boli, and the Kipchaks are called "Tsyn-cha". North of Kipchaks and Kimaks lay endless forest.[5]
Of all the numerous tribes, the Kimaks were ready to head a new political tribal union. They created a new Kimak Kaganate state, a federation of seven tribes, seven Khanlyks. Abu Said Gardezi (d. 1061) wrote that the Kimak state incorporated seven related tribes: Kimaks, Yamak, Kipchaks, Tatar, Bayandur, Lanikaz, and Ajlad. At its height, the Kimak Kaganate had 12 nuclear tribes, and extended from the Irtysh river and Altai mountains in the east to the Black Sea steppe in the west, into the taiga fringes in the north, and southward it reached into the desert-steppe. After their decline, the Jeti-Su Kimaks retreated back to the upper Irtysh region, and the western Kipchak-Kimaks settled in the North Pontic steppes.[6] The Kimaks were originally Tengrians, with some Buddhist and Christian communities. In the eleventh century Islam made some inroads.
The Tatars are first mentioned in connection with the events in middle of the 6th c. in the Kül-Tegin and Bilge-Kagan inscriptions in Kosho-Tsaydam. Tatar tribes participated in the creation of Kimak state and the ethnogenesis of the Kimaks.
Arab and Persian geographers, travelers and historians provide an abundance of information about the Kimaks.[1] The name Kimaks was not known to medieval Chinese geographers, just as the name Chumuhun was not known by Arabian and Persian geographers. Both names referred to the same Kimak tribe.[7] In 821 the Arab Tamim ibn Bahr traveled to Tokuz-Oguzes through Kimak and Kipchak lands. His descriptions were later used by other authors. The Persian traveler Gardezi recorded the Kimaks, noting their location was previously on record as the territory of the people called by the Chinese authors "Chumuhun".
In the 9th c. the Kimaks allied with the Oguzes.[1] In the second half of the 9 c. the reinforced Kimaks began drifting westwards. They occupied the lands of the Petcheneg (Besenyo, Badjinak, Patsinak, Petcheneg, called by the Arabs “Badjnaks”, and by the Byzantines “Patsinaks”), nomadic cattle breeders, whose nucleus were the tribes of the Kangar political union. The Petcheneg position worsened, their union was defeated by an alliance of Oguzes, Kimaks and Karluks. Kimaks, together with Oguzes, seized Kangar Petcheneg lands along Seyhun (Syr-Darya), and in the Aral area, taking over the pastures in the Southern Urals.
Under pressure of Kimaks, the Petcheneg moved from the Aral to the Lower Itil steppes, and from there on to the Don-Dnieper interfluvial, pushing the Magyars westward. At the end of the 9th c. in the south of the Eastern European steppes formed a new nomadic union of Petcheneg. Their neighbors were stronger and better known people: Oguzes, Kipchaks, Magyars and the Khazar Kaganate. Under pressure from joined assaults by Cuman/Kipchaks and their linguistic Oguz cousins of the Kimak Kaganate, and using the weakness of the Khazar Kaganate, the Pecheneg moved through its territory to the west, bringing destruction to the settled populations of Bulgars and Alans in the N.Caucasus.[1]
In the 10th c. the Kimaks were allied with the Oguzes. In his 10th century work, Ibn Haukal drew a map showing that Kipchak-Kimak tribes together with Oguzes pastured in the steppes north of the Aral Sea, and al-Masudi at approximately the same time wrote that all of them were coaching along Emba and Yaik. In Middle East, the Cuman/Kipchak country began to be called Desht-i-Kipchak and Cumania.[1] Biruni noted that Oguzes quite often pastured in the country of Kimaks. Some clans of Kimak tribes quite often coached along the coast of the Caspian Sea: "Shahname" even calls that sea as Kimak Sea". The main western neighbors of Kimak-Kipchaks in the 10th c. were Bashkirs, with whom at that time the westernmost Kipchak clans established very close contacts.[5]
At the end of the 10th century, not only the Caliphate writers and scientists were knowledgeable about them, but in the Central Asian states journeys to the Kimak country were well known and discussed in the markets and chaihanas (tea houses).[8]
In the 12th century the territory of the khanate included the southern Urals, the eastern Volga area, the Mangyshlak Peninsula, and the region northwest of the Aral Sea. Their centers included Kimäk and Sangir. Most of the population was semi-nomadic, a minority were sedentary farmers, many of the city dwellers were craftsmen. In the northern parts of Kimek territory were underground towns of tunnel networks and chambers to escape the cold.
The Kimeks were ruled by a "Kagan, alco called "Khakan" in the eastern records, not of the Ashina dynasty. In the 10th and 11th centuries the ruling clan was Tatar Kimek. Later they appear to have been ruled by the Ilbari (Ilburi) clan.
During the 10th century the Kipchaks became independent within the Kaganate (if they were ever dependent in the first place), and began migrating westward. The zenith of Kimak power came under the Ilburi rulers near the end of the 12th century. In 1183, the Kimaks attacked Volga Bulgaria, and they twice sacked Khwarezm, in the 1152 and 1197.
The Kimak federation occupied a huge territory from the Tobol and Irtysh rivers to the Caspian Sea and Syr-Darya. The northern border of the Kimak federation was the Siberian taiga, the eastern border was the Altai Mountains, the southern border was the lifeless steppe Bet Pak. The borders naturally protecting them from their enemies, the Kimaks lived undisturbed. Their neighbors were Karluks, Oguzes and Kyrgyzes. Kimaks, Kipchaks, Oguzes, Petchenegs, Ugrians and other peoples and ethnic groups of the multi-ethnic Kimak Kaganate lived peacefully and prosperous.
In the beginning of the 11th century the Kimaks and Kipchaks pushed the Oguzes to the south, Petchenegs to the west, Karluks to the southeast, and the Ugrians to the north into the Siberian taiga, and became owners of the ancient Kangju. Individual Khanlyks of the Kimak Kaganate grew stronger, separatist forces increased, undermining central authority. The Khakan became only a militia leader, there was no central army, each subject Khan had his small army.
The Kimaks and then Khitay pressed the Kipchaks to move west, occupying lands that earlier belonged to Oguzes. After seizing Oguz lands, the Kipchaks grew considerably stronger, and the Kimaks became dependents of them. The Kipchak migration was a planned invasion, a capture of richer pastures. Part of the Kimaks remained in the ancient land along the Irtysh, and a part left with the Kipchaks to the west. A larger portion of the Kimak Kaganate tribes, the Kimaks, Kipchaks, Pechenegs, and the Oguzes migrated to the west, to beyond Ural, Volga, Don and Dniepr, changing the ethnic map of Eastern Europe. The southern Karluks joined the Karakhanid state.
A significant mass of Kipchaks and Kimaks remained in the Irtysh territories with the ancient Uralic peoples of western Siberia. Subsequently, they formed the Siberian Tatars and other Turkic peoples. In the west, the Kipchaks followed the path taken previously by the Petchenegs under pressure of the Oguzes, and later the Oguzes under pressure of the Kimaks and Kipchaks. They crossed the Volga, Don, Dniestr, and Dniepr, and reached the Danube. On their way the Kipchaks were joined by the remains of the Petchenegs and Oguzes. The Rus chronicles under year 1054 records an appearance near Kiev of the Oguz people, who were pushed by Kipchaks, a branch of middle Irtysh and Ob Kimaks.[1]
A court doctor of the Seljuk Sultans, Al-Marvazi tells that "Kais" (snakes) and "Kuns" pressed the "Shars" tribe (Turkic ‘sary = pale, yellow’), and those, in turn, occupied the lands of the Turkmen, Oguzes and Petchenegs. Matthew of Edessa tells that the "people of snakes" pressed the "red-haired" (i.e.yellow), and the "red-haired" moved on the Oguzes, who together with the Petchenegs attacked Byzantium. The "Kais" are Kimaks, and "Shars" are Kipchaks, which Slavic peoples translated as Polovtsy (Slav. "polovye", meaning light yellow). Besides the Sharys, i.e. the yellow Kipchaks, participated other Kimak hordes (Kais, Kuns), and other members of the Kaganate in the advance to the West.[9]
In this general migration to the fecund western pastures the Kipchaks were the most active participants, a number of sources calls them "yellow". Many researchers believe that Kipchaks were blonds and blue-eyed, descended from the Dingling, who lived in the steppes of Southern Siberia in the end of the 1st millennium BC, and who were, according to the Chinese chroniclers, blonds. Certainly among Kipchaks were some blond individuals, however a great bulk of the Turkic-speaking people had a Mongoloid admixture (according to anthropologists), generally the Kimak-Kipchaks were dark-haired and brown-eyed. Possibly the color characteristic was a symbolical definition of a part of the Kipchaks.[10]
The Kimak Kaganate's fall in the mid-11th century was caused by external factors. The migration of the Central Asian Mongolic-speaking nomads pushed by the Mongolic Khitay state Lyao formed in Northern China in 916 AD. The Khitay nomads occupied the Kimak and Kipchak lands west of the Irtysh. The Kaganate thereafter declined, and the Kimeks were probably at times subjected to Kyrgyz and Kara-Khitai overlordship. In the 11th-12th centuries the Mongolic-speaking Naiman tribe in its westward move displaced the Kimaks-Kipchaks from the Mongolian Altai and Upper Irtysh. From the middle of the 12th century the Mongolic tribes predominated almost in all the territory of modern Mongolia.[1]
With their settlements and pastures stretching for thousands of kilometers from the Irtysh to the Caspian Sea and from the taiga to the Kazakhstan semi-deserts, the economy of the Kimak confederation, varied between the eastern areas and the western areas, and between the northern forest-steppe and the southern foothills of the Tian-Shan mountains. The Persian Anonym emphasized that Kipchaks living in the extreme western areas of the Kaganate lead a more primitive way of life than those who lived near the Irtysh, where the city Imak was the center of the Kimak union and summer seat of the Kimak Kagan.[11]
The Kimak economy was classic Central Asian pastoral nomadism, with the Turkic pattern of widely varying local economic specializations and adaptations.[12] The key animal was horse and the main subsistence animal was sheep. As a subsistence animal, fatty-tailed sheep provided meat for food, oil for cooking, and tallow for light. The poorest Kimaks herded cattle. They wintered in the steppe between the Emba and Ural rivers, but summered near the Irtysh. The summer home of the Kimak Khakans was in the town of Imak, in the middle Irtysh, the winter capital was Tamim on the southern shore of lake Balkhash.[13] Archeology confirms that te Kimaks in the Irtysh area were semi-settled, Al-Idrisi in the 12th century wrote about Kimak cultivated lands as a well-known fact, with wheat crops, millet, barley, legumes, and even rice.[11] The Kimaks also raised grapes and were beekeepers. They left remains of irrigation systems and ruins of castles.[1] Al-Idrisi describes in detail the Kimak cities, emphasizing that all of them were well fortified. In the Kagan’s city, with its concentration of Kimak aristocracy, were markets and temples. Sedentary life led to construction of more stable dwellings, in the settlements and cities clay-walled semi-dugouts were widely used alongside felt yurts. Typically, both type of dwellings had a hearth in the center.[11]
The Kipchaks of both written sources and archeological evidence combined pastoral cattle breeding with some elements of sedentary life.[14] The "Desht-i-Kipchak" or Kiptchak steppes were well organized for prosperous nomadic cattle breeding. The steppe was subdivided into locations with certain pasture routes, yaylak summer settlements and kishlak winter settlements. Near permanent yaylak and kishlak settlements were kurgan cemeteries. In the settlements and along the steppe shlyakhs ('roads') and coaching routes Kipchaks erected ancestor sanctuaries with stone statues representing the deceased.[15] The favorite animal was the horse, used for riding and draught in agriculture, and horse meat was considered the best. Among the crafts were leather processing, felt manufacturing, clothing and footwear, horse harnesses of leather and felt. The Kimaks and other tribes of the Kaganate produced weapons, implements, and agricultural tools. In the forest-steppe areas woodworking was widespread. Utensils, yurt parts, etc. were made of wood. Iron, gold, and silver were mined and processed. Kimak cities were mostly located along the trading ways. Trade was mostly barter, farmers exchanged grain and flour for lambs and leather, but monetary trade was active as well.
Under the influence of trading relations with Muslim Arabs, the Kimak Kaganate was drawn into the slave-trading business. "Objectionable people" and even relatives were sold into slavery. Slavery became the fate of multitudes, sold by Khitay running endless manhunt attacks and roundups. This tragedy lasted for 200 years, ca 850-1050.[1]
The Kimak were literate in the Old Turkic script. Abu Dulaf (ca 940), and Ibn al-Fakikh wrote about the Kimak Kaganate: "They have reeds with which they write". Archeologists found 10th-11th c. bronze mirrors with inscriptions near Urdjar in the Tarbagatai mountains, and in the Irtysh region. L. Kimball stipulates that literate Kimak had works of law, religion, history, and epic poetry, none of which have survived. Although the Kimak had copper coins, most trade was done by barter.
Hunting was a key part of Kimak life. Large group hunts served as training for war. Pride, prestige, and leadership were associated with the use of falcons, hawks, golden eagles, and hunting dogs, and with the pursuit of beasts of prey, including tiger and snow-leopard.
Kimak Khans wore golden crowns and clothes sewn with gold. Al Idrisi relayed that Kimaks extract gold with mercury and float it in dung.
Kimak towns were a symbiosis of local predominantly Turkic Kimak populations, pre-existing autochthonous culture, and people from elsewhere in Central Asia. A characteristic feature was that all towns were well-fortified, and in each a prince-chieftain headed a garrison. Towns were situated on lake shores, river banks, in border areas, and in impregnable mountain areas. A fortified wall with an iron gate surrounded the largest capital town Tamim of the Khakan, where also lived aristocrats. In the hills stood castle-forts surrounded by moats.
Kimaks on the of the Seihun steppe traded in sheep. Kimak presence on the Volga enabled them to use local major trade routes, and put them in contact with the Byzantine and Viking worlds.[12]
Kimaks made cheese and beverages from fermented mare's milk, some of which probably were distilled to high potency, and beverages from rice, millet, barley, and honey.[16]
The Kimak religion was the same as the majority of Turks. In the steppes from the Baikal to the Danube the Turks believed in Tengri. The western neighbors of the Kyrgyzes (Kimaks, Kipchaks, Cumans, Oguzes, Pechenegs, Karluks, etc.), who were located closer to the Muslim lands, still professed Tengrianism in the 9th century. The Kimaks had a tradition of ancestor reverence. On the border with the Uyghurs, Kimaks adopted Manichaeism.[1] The Kimaks also worshipped rocks with images (apparently ancient petroglyphs) and images of human feet. Al-Idrisi spoke about belief in various spirits, and about acceptance by some Kimaks of Manichaeism and Islam. Apparently, the last two religions started penetrating the Kimaks in the 10th century but became widely accepted much later, and then only in the central Irtysh and Balkhash areas.[17]


The most typical and notable feature of Kimak-Kipchak and Cuman culture are the kurgan stelae or balbals, erected at sanctuaries with square fencing of rough stone and gravel. In the 6th-9th centuries similar sanctuaries with statues of deceased ancestors were built by the Göktürks and Uyghurs. After destruction of the Göktürk and Uyghur Kaganates, Kipchaks and Cumans were one of the few Turkic peoples who preserved this tradition. Cumans and Kipchaks continued the tradition until the loss of their political independence.
From the end of the 9th century the construction of small fenced sanctuaries devoted to ancestors, with a statue (or statues) inside became a distinctive feature of the Cumans and Kipchaks. The obelisks were often simple rough stelae, frequently with figures without details. Faces were indicated by deeply carved lines, frequently heart-shaped. Female statues differed from mens by round breasts.[15] The sanctuaries were built only for rich and noble nomads.
Nizami described Kimak reverence to their ancestors. Kimaks and Cumans/Kipchaks erected many statues, believed to have special power and honored accordingly: "All Cumans/Kipchak tribes, when they happen to pass there, bow down twice in front of this obelisk. Mounted or on foot, they bow to it as to a Creator. A horseman takes an arrow from his quiver in honor of it, shepherds with flocks leave a sheep behind".[18]
Some Kimaks cremated their dead: near the Irtysh cremation burials have been found.[19]
S.A.Pletneva developed a comparative description of Middle Age N. Pontic burials customs including Kimaks, Cumans and Kipchaks. The grave gifts are those necessary for a nomad during a trip to the next world: horse harnesses, weapons, less frequently personal decorations and vessels with ritual food. Next to the diseased was laid his true comrade (‘tovarich’), a horse. The belief in need to supply the diseased with the things necessary on the road and at least for initial life in the other world is described by the 10th c. Ibn Fadlan, describing not a Kimak-Kipchak but an Oguz funeral ceremony. However, from nomad kurgan excavations we know that the funeral ceremonies of the Turkic peoples was generally similar, meaning the general provisions for the construction of funeral complexes were identical.[15]
And if a person from their number would die, for him is dug a big hole in a shape of a house, he would be dressed in his jacket, his belt, his bow... and would put in his hand a wooden cup with nabiz, would put before him a wooden vessel with nabiz, would bring everything that he has, and would lay it with him in that house... Then would place him in it and cover the house above him with decking, and pile above it something like a dome of clay. Then they would take horses, and depending on their number would kill a hundred of them, or two hundred, or one, and would eat their meat, except for the head, legs, hide, and tail. And, truly, they stretch all this on wooden frames and say: "These are his horses on whom he would go to paradise". And if he ever killed men and was brave, they would carve images from wood numbering those whom he killed, would place them on his tomb and would say: "These are his youngsters who would serve him in paradise".
—Ibn Fadlan[15]
The nomads were always accompanied into the other world by slaughtered horses, and sometimes by others animals, and enemies killed by him represented by simple stelae or rough human images of stone or wood. The horses were necessary for speedy crossing, for coaching from one world to another, the more of them the better. Among Oguzes the images of the deceased were neither installed over the tombs nor in special sanctuaries. That custom was only among the population of the Kimak Kaganate, and mainly among the Kipchaks.[20]
Turkic khans, including the Kimak Khan, had a special role as High Priest and bearer of prophecy. Shabib al-Karani left a probably distorted description of such a ritual:
The Khakan of the Turks has a specific day when they light a huge bonfire. Khakan speaks an oracular phrase into the fire. Then he looks intently staring into the fire, and turns away from the fire. If his face becomes yellow, it is a sign of fertility and good, if it becomes white, harvest will fail, if it becomes green means illness and epidemics, and if it becomes black, it indicates a death of the Khakan or a distant journey. When the latter happens, Khakan hastens to go on a journey or a raid. Kimak shamans had yada, "rain stones", which were used to bring rain when it was needed.
I plan to have the Kimeks and Cumans and Kipchaks remain unaffected by the Seljuk PoD, what happens afterwards according to other PoDs remains to be seen...
 
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Actually no. They served the Qara-Qanids previously before besieging Merv, and if given the chance would overthrow the ruling Khan and take his place. You would get something worse than the Seljuk invasions OTL if Toghrul's at the head of a giant horde of all the might of the Qara-Qanids along with the Turkmen, which would spell further doom for the ruling dynasties of Persia and Iraq. So to preserve them (for now), we must kill off the brothers at Merv, and become nobody's mess.
 
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So now here comes my next question for you viewers:
1. Would it be possible for Matilda of Canossa (who was in Henry III's captivity when he died OTL) catch and die of plague along with Anno (the Archbishop of Cologne who captured young Henry IV and brought anarchy to Ze Reich) instead of Henry III, which convinces him to return to Frankfurt?
2. Would the investiture controversy start earlier if Henry III lived until 1075? How would Henry IV be brought up differently?
3. Could the Ottonian Renaissance start up again under a more successful Salian Dynasty?
4. Exactly how might the investiture controversy succeed in favor of the Salians?
5. If Basil II has a son named Constantine VIII who succeeds him in 1025, (and is a fairly competent ruler) what are the possibilities of he and his successors being able to hold onto Southern Italy and driving back the Normans?
6. Would this Constantine VIII also be able to carry out his father's plans to liberate Sicily from the Saracens, driven by popular support when the Fatimids slaughter Christian Pilgrims in the Levant in the 1030s?
7. If Constantine VIII was born around 1000 AD would he be able to successfully meditate the split from Rome in the Great Schism of 1054 before dying in 1056?
8. If Hungary continued to be a semi-vassal under Henry III's continued reign, would it be prevented for a time from conquering neighboring Croatia?
 
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