how to create a third world europe
- Thread starter Berserker
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Well that would probably require Europe to never have the Roman Empire or hellenistic empires that emerged after Alexander.
Well, the common trend does appear to always be Roman Empire aborted with stronger Egypt or Carthage or Persia. Though even without a Roman Empire it's only so long that cultural and technological advancement could be delayed in spreading to Europe.
The Hun probably still happen and push proto-Turkic and Germanic people's westward into the Celtc areas of Europe. Some sort of power on the Bosporus will probably still develop and transmit development westward.
The Hun probably still happen and push proto-Turkic and Germanic people's westward into the Celtc areas of Europe. Some sort of power on the Bosporus will probably still develop and transmit development westward.
A missleading belief is that Rome MADE Europe... while not totally wrong, it is not totaly true eitheir... the contribution of the celts is underated by example - they weren't pure barbarians, they created the oppidium model, they made some roads missatribued to romans...
Without Rome, it's possible that eitheir says another Latin peoples rise up in regionaly at least, Neo-etruscan power maybe, and there is greek powers.... More fractioned Europe maybe, but an empire may rise one day, anyway...
Without Rome, it's possible that eitheir says another Latin peoples rise up in regionaly at least, Neo-etruscan power maybe, and there is greek powers.... More fractioned Europe maybe, but an empire may rise one day, anyway...
Have Napoleon become hegemon of Europe, with the Continental System sealing Europe from foreign commerce. At the same time, an anti-Napoleonic reaction in Britain causes Britain to retrench from religious pluralism, economic liberalism, and overseas expansion (except to dump criminals and other undesirables). In the latter half of the 19th Century, the French Empire implodes in a bloodbath of nationalism and warlordism, with all of Europe as fragmented as the OTL Holy Roman Empire. Britain and Russia try to set up puppets in Europe, ultimately resulting in both countries disintegrating and/or experiencing *communist revolutions.
It's the early 20 century. A century of non-stop war and oppression has prevented the Industrial Revolution or any ideas such as democracy and rule of law from emerging in Europe. Instead, the Ottoman Empire and to a lesser extent China, Siam, and Japan (all of which pulled off Meiji reforms) which have acquired industrial powers. And the Ottoman Empire in particular is looking north for easy sources of resources and cheap labour...
It's the early 20 century. A century of non-stop war and oppression has prevented the Industrial Revolution or any ideas such as democracy and rule of law from emerging in Europe. Instead, the Ottoman Empire and to a lesser extent China, Siam, and Japan (all of which pulled off Meiji reforms) which have acquired industrial powers. And the Ottoman Empire in particular is looking north for easy sources of resources and cheap labour...
I'd say this.
If the Mongols cripple Europe enough that they have a significantly lower population, we might see further down the line that the Arab World and Europe have switched roles historically.
How would Napoleon's actions make the British do any of those things? I see no reason for them to give up overseas colonization (considering they have a massive empire anyways) or reject religious pluralism or economic liberalization because of Napoleon.
The Ottomans and Qing were already declining at this time. I don't see how Japan would do the Meiji reforms without a west to model themselves on.
I doubt it. Of course, getting that to happen in the first place is almost impossible.
Yes, its physically doable, but the "Why?!" needs a damn good answer.
Flocculencio
Donor
The trouble is that the Middle East has much less ecological capacity to rebound from such an invasion than Europe so it can't be used as a model.
Where the Mongols came through they destroyed irrigation systems and social structures that had taken millennia to build up and which couldn't be replaced. In wetter, less marginal Europe recovery is going to be a lot easier. A comparison could be made with the Timurid invasion of Northwestern India which while just as devastating didn't have the same long term effects as the Mongol invasions had on the Middle East simply because the country was ecologically more suited to a recovery.
It's plausible that a Britain constantly afraid of an invasion would devote disproportionate resources into building an army, which would directly hinder the entrepreneurs who started the Industrial Revolution. Let's say hypothetically a US which allies with Napoleon conquers Canada, and the butterflies prevent Britain from controlling India beyond coastal enclaves. Finally, a siege mentality in Britain leads to a which hunt which leads to a curtailing of religious tolerance. Anyways, all that's required is for Europe to be embroiled in wars.
Plausibly the extended wars and oppression under Napoleon causes European scientists and entrepreneurs to flee to the Ottoman Empire, which promises religious tolerance and relative peace. This influx rejuvenates the Ottoman court. After decades of war and stagnation in Europe, the Ottomans see Europe as ripe for colonies, puppet states, and conquests. What happens in China and Japan isn't quite relevant to the OP.
scholar
Banned
The Catholic Church becomes a bit more influential and a bit more authoritarian, while rebellions against it fail. Now, the Church's significance is normally overrated in history, but with the right POD (Mongols do thrash Europe, so much so that they adopt the role of the huns only for their great khan to die shortly after receiving an ambassador from the Vatican and the Mongol effort subsequently collapses and the Church becomes much stronger, as do people's loyalty to it) its possible.
The Middle East (or anywhere else), however, gradually overcomes its conservative elements, though each successive generation continues to describe conservatives the label and the people's feelings change.
The Middle East (or anywhere else), however, gradually overcomes its conservative elements, though each successive generation continues to describe conservatives the label and the people's feelings change.
The Industrial Revolution was underway in Britain already at this point. If anything, they would invest in industry more to make weapons and other military technologies.
It would be hard for the US to conquer Canada, and I don't see how that prevents them from expanding their fairly large and growing empire in India. They also still have Guyana.
The British aren't going to start a massive witch hunt and destroy religious tolerance because of Napoleon.
They would flee to Britain or America first, not the Ottomans.
Personally, if the Seljuks did not gain control of the Holy Land, prompting the crusades, many great cultural advancements would not have been brought back, allowing for the renaissance to emerge (nor the great centers of translation)
Might also allow for the Church to keep an overall firm grip on its 'flocks', and prolong the death of feudalism or the church for another century or two
On the other hand, an over extended war of religion, where the Protestants, Catholics, and anyone else gets even more extreme, violent, fragmented (on all sides), and very messy, tying many countries from Scandanavia to Britain, to Russia, to the Appennine Peninsula, allowing for intellectuals or middle class to flee east to the (realitively) safe Ottoman Empire and translate knowledge east to the middle east and India, allowing arab renaissance and keeping India on par with Europe as it had been in OTL until Aurangzeb. Perhaps the constant war corrodes the spanish and portugese colonial empires, and delay colonization in many places until at least the 18th century
Keep in mind this is all speculation, and subject to criticism etc, etc and can all be inaffective to delay OTL
Might also allow for the Church to keep an overall firm grip on its 'flocks', and prolong the death of feudalism or the church for another century or two
On the other hand, an over extended war of religion, where the Protestants, Catholics, and anyone else gets even more extreme, violent, fragmented (on all sides), and very messy, tying many countries from Scandanavia to Britain, to Russia, to the Appennine Peninsula, allowing for intellectuals or middle class to flee east to the (realitively) safe Ottoman Empire and translate knowledge east to the middle east and India, allowing arab renaissance and keeping India on par with Europe as it had been in OTL until Aurangzeb. Perhaps the constant war corrodes the spanish and portugese colonial empires, and delay colonization in many places until at least the 18th century
Keep in mind this is all speculation, and subject to criticism etc, etc and can all be inaffective to delay OTL
The balkans are like that OTL.
So based on that history I have an option, you could have a major schism in the Catholic Church, followed by several other schisms leaving a fragmented church and perhaps a rump catholic church.
So when the rise of Islam hits Iberia and Sicily it doesn't stop.
Now they wouldn't be going deep into Germany or anything like that, but eventually when whichever caliphate that conquers the territory withdraws, it is going to leave a fragmented religion, perhaps even with Islamic traditions in some areas. And a disastrous post-occupation chaos, much like the balkans powder keg we had before WW1.
You could even have the Mongols do some conquering. Rip it all apart.
Bonus points for the few big powers duking it out in a huge war much like OTL WW1 and that could blow things up even more, the rest of the world also might do better without colonialism, meaning a few big powers like Japan, China, Persia, and elsewhere get a better chance to achieve something.
So based on that history I have an option, you could have a major schism in the Catholic Church, followed by several other schisms leaving a fragmented church and perhaps a rump catholic church.
So when the rise of Islam hits Iberia and Sicily it doesn't stop.
Now they wouldn't be going deep into Germany or anything like that, but eventually when whichever caliphate that conquers the territory withdraws, it is going to leave a fragmented religion, perhaps even with Islamic traditions in some areas. And a disastrous post-occupation chaos, much like the balkans powder keg we had before WW1.
You could even have the Mongols do some conquering. Rip it all apart.
Bonus points for the few big powers duking it out in a huge war much like OTL WW1 and that could blow things up even more, the rest of the world also might do better without colonialism, meaning a few big powers like Japan, China, Persia, and elsewhere get a better chance to achieve something.
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