How to better preserve German stem duchies

[Midas]

I'm writing a TL with a PoD at the very beginning of the 11th century. I was wondering if there is any way to prevent the massive decentralization in the HRE, preserve more of the stem duchies and prevent their fracturing? By extension then, is it remotely possible a sort of royal federation could arise among these states so we'd see a "Kingdom of Germany" in the Middle Ages?

My PoD is in the early 11th century so anything around then is fair game. I figured perhaps a good PoD for this might be Otto III surviving and being able to centralize the empire in Rome. With more of the HRE's focus on Italy, Germany might end up neglected and rebel more. But I don't know if that's any good for preserving the duchies or for helping found a German Kingdom.

Anyway, any input is appreciated.

 

[archaeogeek]

Wouldn't powerful stem duchies make germany even more decentralized? I mean, you basically have a bunch of dukes who now control lands often comparable to something between Scotland and England in size...

 

[Midas]

Wouldn't powerful stem duchies make germany even more decentralized? I mean, you basically have a bunch of dukes who now control lands often comparable to something between Scotland and England in size...

Fair enough. I am cool with keeping Germany decentralized so long as it is under stem duchies and not a million little Kingdoms. I guess a bigger question then is can the stem duchies do this without themselves fracturing into hundreds of sub-units.

 

[MNP]

One of the reasons Germany had more trouble centralizing (among many but this is one of the few I know) is that unlike France which had a very very long line of unbroken succession in the Capetian, they didn't find a dynasty that lasted until it was already too late (Hapsburg) so they never got used to just father succeeding son over and over again until it was what seemed natural.

 

[Susano]

Well, the stem duchies were weakened and eventually allc arved up (with the exception of Bavaria, and if you let that count Upper Lorraine) because the Emperors wanted to weaken them and strengthen their vasalls, by raising them to direct crown vasalls. Of course, that only resulted in THEM getting more power, not the Emperor...

Actually the de facto system of Germany before 1000 was not bad - no stem duchy tried to break away, because basically every duke considered his duchy a stepping stone to King- and Emperorship At that time, there hardly ever was any dynastic succession in the Duchies, either, because the Emperor constantly gave them out of fiefs to new people (who then inevitable would nontheless end up conspiring against him - okay, I may be exaggerating here a bit). This kept Germany together despite the power of the dukes. Of course, it didnt make for a much centralised realm.

Though I guess it should be possible to have a reasonable united Germany with existing Stem Duchies, as a sort of confederation. I mea, I could easily imagine a HRE where the Emperor is elected by and among the Dukes, and then gives out HRE dominions outside Germany to single duchies to hold or pacify them. This way, every duke has a stake in a reasonably close confederation continuing to exist...

 

[archaeogeek]

You'd probably need a different resolution of the investiture controversy for it to work out.

 

[Midas]

Well, the stem duchies were weakened and eventually allc arved up (with the exception of Bavaria, and if you let that count Upper Lorraine) because the Emperors wanted to weaken them and strengthen their vasalls, by raising them to direct crown vasalls. Of course, that only resulted in THEM getting more power, not the Emperor...

Actually the de facto system of Germany before 1000 was not bad - no stem duchy tried to break away, because basically every duke considered his duchy a stepping stone to King- and Emperorship At that time, there hardly ever was any dynastic succession in the Duchies, either, because the Emperor constantly gave them out of fiefs to new people (who then inevitable would nontheless end up conspiring against him - okay, I may be exaggerating here a bit). This kept Germany together despite the power of the dukes. Of course, it didnt make for a much centralised realm.

Though I guess it should be possible to have a reasonable united Germany with existing Stem Duchies, as a sort of confederation. I mea, I could easily imagine a HRE where the Emperor is elected by and among the Dukes, and then gives out HRE dominions outside Germany to single duchies to hold or pacify them. This way, every duke has a stake in a reasonably close confederation continuing to exist...

As I understand it- and I may be wrong, the stem duchies' main fault for collapse then was that they became de-institutionalized by the emperor and were just nice blueprints for handing out fiefdoms.

Can you see any conceivable way, perhaps before or during the reign of Otto III (that was around my original PoD) that the stem duchies could end up as entrenched...mini-monarchies? Or political units that acted more like unified units, not packages to be parceled and picked apart to appease allies, clergy etc.? Sort of I guess more like Normandy or Brittany: indefinite and still made up of many fiefdoms and estates, but nonetheless considered a socio-political entity.

My original thoughts were during Otto III's time he focuses more on Romanizing the Empire, starting with placing the capital in Rome- which would lead to neglect of the northern German territories. Unfortunately, I can't immediately see of any conceivable way for the duchies themselves to break off- so perhaps this isn't the best way, but any suggestions are appreciated!

And I just find the duchies interesting as units of politics, and I wanted to include them in my TL. It's deliberate and fictitious, but I wanted to make it sound legitimate .

 

[archaeogeek]

More entrenched dukes would probably require more stable dynasties, and a decision that they are "duke by the grace of god" - what about a hypothetical where Aleramo of Monferrat is more powerful: he was basically ruling most of Lombardy already. The dukes get together and depose Otto, replacing him by the now duke or king of Lombardy (Italy maybe), he's wealthy, but also distant enough that he might not be doing as much damage in Germany...

 

[Midas]

More entrenched dukes would probably require more stable dynasties, and a decision that they are "duke by the grace of god" - what about a hypothetical where Aleramo of Monferrat is more powerful: he was basically ruling most of Lombardy already. The dukes get together and depose Otto, replacing him by the now duke or king of Lombardy (Italy maybe), he's wealthy, but also distant enough that he might not be doing as much damage in Germany...

Actually, as a fun afterthought although Otto I might be better to preserve the duchies as they were, a surviving Otto III who loses the northern duchies to some rebellion could also provide the means of re-uniting the Italian peninsula (he was iirc heavily interested in the matter during his reign). I think as an ideal I'd want to look at something like a ducal German confederation that mimics the HRE prince-elector structure (only with dukes and they elect the King of Germany?) and an HRE confined to the Italian Peninsula and perhaps the lands around that.

 

[archaeogeek]

Actually, as a fun afterthought although Otto I might be better to preserve the duchies as they were, a surviving Otto III who loses the northern duchies to some rebellion could also provide the means of re-uniting the Italian peninsula (he was iirc heavily interested in the matter during his reign). I think as an ideal I'd want to look at something like a ducal German confederation that mimics the HRE prince-elector structure (only with dukes and they elect the King of Germany?) and an HRE confined to the Italian Peninsula and perhaps the lands around that.

Or you could simply formalize the idea that the emperor is not king of Germany but only reigns over the duchies emperor, and doesn't rule them (the typical modern constitutional monarchy formula, but in this case applied to the idea that their relationship is one of mutual clientele, maybe), with the dukes formalizing the ducal/electoral structure as a sort of confederate german ruling council while the Emperor himself remains king of Italy and Burgundy. Whether this can butterfly away the Norman conquest of Sicily remains to be seen, however; I moderately doubt it, plus I like Italy split in two - but it might, depending on how you make your butterflies go.

 

[Susano]

As I understand it- and I may be wrong, the stem duchies' main fault for collapse then was that they became de-institutionalized by the emperor and were just nice blueprints for handing out fiefdoms.

Yes, but that was just a consequence of basically all their vasalls being raised to become crown vasalls - as consequence, the (former) stem duchies ended up having no territory at all, and hence indeed became often purely titular (for example the Bishop of Würzburg as titular Duke of Franconia, or the way the name "Saxony" wandered through North Germany)

Can you see any conceivable way, perhaps before or during the reign of Otto III (that was around my original PoD) that the stem duchies could end up as entrenched...mini-monarchies? Or political units that acted more like unified units, not packages to be parceled and picked apart to appease allies, clergy etc.? Sort of I guess more like Normandy or Brittany: indefinite and still made up of many fiefdoms and estates, but nonetheless considered a socio-political entity.

My original thoughts were during Otto III's time he focuses more on Romanizing the Empire, starting with placing the capital in Rome- which would lead to neglect of the northern German territories. Unfortunately, I can't immediately see of any conceivable way for the duchies themselves to break off- so perhaps this isn't the best way, but any suggestions are appreciated!

Hm, doesnt sound too bad. One could maybe see a parallel to Frederick II - Frederick II only cared for his Kingdom of Sicily, so he basically gave up Germany to his vasalls (a crucial point in the decentralisation of Germany). I think it would take more than just one generation here, but if Otto III lives longer and and focuses on politcially centralising Italy, then dynasties could entrench themselvs in the stem duchies, and with Ottos successor, or the successor of him it might happen that they are only very loosely part of the HRE anymore...

The process would take some time, I think, because at that time the Emperor mostly held down Italy with the support of loyal German nobles, so it would take time for the imperial support base to shift from Germans to Italians, but it is I think possible...

More entrenched dukes would probably require more stable dynasties, and a decision that they are "duke by the grace of god" -

Yeah, thats a big part of it. As Ive said, for a time the Emperors/German Kings doled out the duchies to a new duke every generation or so, so that no entrenched dynasties could form. And this of course also entrenched the principle that they were dukes by the grace of the Emperor/King.

 

[oberdada]

just a smal thought:

what about having 13 instead of 7 electors?

Realms of electors where not allowed to be devided and could serve as the centerpiece of medium sized German states.

I would add the other 3 Archbishops (Bremen, Salzburg, Prague) then you still have 3 more wordly electors. (Bavaria would certainly be an option)

(i haven't been her for a while and really not used to discuss Gemen midevil history in Englich any more,I hope it is still understandable)

 

[archaeogeek]

The Archiepiscopal electors were there primarily because they were also in theory chancellors of the empire's three kingdoms (Burgundy ("Gaul"), Italy and Germany) as far as I know, I'm not quite sure it would be needed either.