How successful would Neutral Italy's wars of expansion be during world war 2

Say Germany gets bogged down in France

How successful would Italian wars against Yugoslavia and Greece be

Would they get bogged down, if so would they try to get German help and would Germany aid them

Would the allies declare war against Italy
 
Well for 1 greece was an ally of the UK. If the Italians attack then they are at war with the UK automatically.

Secondly if germany gets bogged down in France and Italy decides to attack Yugoslavia on its own they basically commit suicide right there. If the Germans can't hlep themselves they can hardly help Italy out can they?

This is all with the obvious diplomatic and political impossibilities put aside.
 
This is all with the obvious diplomatic and political impossibilities put aside.
So what would be impossibly attacking Greece or Yugoslavia ?

Well for 1 greece was an ally of the UK. If the Italians attack then they are at war with the UK automatically.
Did they have any treaties with Greece ? Given Italy is not at war with France or the UK and they have bigger fish to fry, why would they care .
 
IIRC Italy planned to invade Yugoslavia prior to invasion of France and their entry into WWII? question whether Germany would intervene to aid them since their focus was on France.
 
So what would be impossibly attacking Greece or Yugoslavia ?

The impossibilities i'm talking about is the idea that if Germany gets bogged down in France that Italy would decide to attack the allies on its own, even though its ally German,y which is supposed to be superior, isn't doing a good job. if the Germans can't handle France, what good can Italy do?

Did they have any treaties with Greece ? Given Italy is not at war with France or the UK and they have bigger fish to fry, why would they care .

The UK and France guaranteed to independence of Greece in 1939, meaning they would declare war on anyone who would threathen Greece. Although they didn't much care for war, already being at war with Germany who has close ties with Italy gives them the motivation to fight Italy as well. They know perfectly well the Italian are simply expanding their territory to gather more industrial and strategic strength to eventually threathen France and UK as well since territories belonging to them were part of the Italian sphere of influence. Better fight the Italians before they gain more strength, before the Italians are actually ready for war.
 
IIRC Italy planned to invade Yugoslavia prior to invasion of France and their entry into WWII? question whether Germany would intervene to aid them since their focus was on France.

If Germany is bogged down in France i doubt they would divert forces to Yugoslavia to help the Italians, all they would have are border guards to prevent the Yugoslavs from attacking them.

On the other hand, its safe to assume Italy would do really poorly attacking Yugoslavia on its own, although it would probably get help from Hungary. Perhaps, if things get really bad they might promise territories to Romania and Bulgaria in exchange for their help? In any case, German lands are in danger from the Yugoslav forces. They mgith snoop some away from the East, if they have to spare.
 
IIRC Italy planned to invade Yugoslavia prior to invasion of France and their entry into WWII? question whether Germany would intervene to aid them since their focus was on France.

If Germany is bogged down in France i doubt they would divert forces to Yugoslavia to help the Italians, all they would have are border guards to prevent the Yugoslavs from attacking them.

On the other hand, its safe to assume Italy would do really poorly attacking Yugoslavia on its own, although it would probably get help from Hungary. Perhaps, if things get really bad they might promise territories to Romania and Bulgaria in exchange for their help? In any case, German lands are in danger from the Yugoslav forces. They mgith snoop some away from the East, if they have to spare.

do not know how well they would do attacking Yugoslavia, my view may be colored by their (relatively) poor performance during OTL invasion of 1941? (or that is the way it is usually described)

subtext of my post was whether debacle in Yugoslavia might lead to sitting out WWII.
 
Why specifically did the Axis attack Yugoslvia in April 1941 Was there a change in government & alliance orientation that winter or spring?
 
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do not know how well they would do attacking Yugoslavia, my view may be colored by their (relatively) poor performance during OTL invasion of 1941? (or that is the way it is usually described)

subtext of my post was whether debacle in Yugoslavia might lead to sitting out WWII.

Well the situation would be different if Italy decides to attack in 1940. Since the posibility of other countries joining in the fighting the Yugoslavs can concentrate their forces much better.

Of course Germany will still have a say in what can and cannot happen as the leader of the Axis and the one to put most pressure on countiresl ike Hungary and Bulgaria, but lacking a proper invasion army the Italians will do most of the fighting and thus have a much bigger say around the peace table if Yugoslavia is defeated. Thus, Yugoslavia will be united to defend at all costs and even the Croats will fight fiercely since Italy had its eyes on lage portions of Croat territory(Dalmatia).

I don't know about any relations with the Allies to know if an attack on Yugoslavia by Italy would mean war with the UK and France. Might be, since they will want to stop Axis aggression and Italy definitly has close ties with Germany. I'm sure if they would sign the tripartite pact this will be seen as an alliance and the UK and France will declare war on Italy.

I could be wrong though. Perhaps whilst Germany is bogged down in France Italy will be bogged down in Yugoslavia. If the war takes long enough partisans(the toughest partisans of the war) can cause major problems for Italian operations, major.
 
Why specifically did the Axis attack Yugoslvia in April 1940? Was there a change in government & alliance orientation that winter or spring?

You mean April 1941 OTL? Yugoslavia joined the axis in March 1941, this would have allowed Germany to pas through Yugoslavia to help italy out in Greece, but there was a coup at the end of March and thus Germany had to decide to invade Yugoslavia in order to get to Greece.
 
do not know how well they would do attacking Yugoslavia, my view may be colored by their (relatively) poor performance during OTL invasion of 1941? (or that is the way it is usually described)

subtext of my post was whether debacle in Yugoslavia might lead to sitting out WWII.

If Italy is neutral any invasion of Jugoslavia or Greece (if happen) will not be hampered by the resources draining other campaign (better remember that at the same time that the various Balkan invasion started, much of the italian assets were occupied in Africa); not only that but she will not be totally cut out from the world market, meaning that in general the armed forces and the industry will not be resources starved as OTL.

If Germany is bogged down in France, nation like Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania will look towards Italy (with whom had already important economic tie) instead of Berlin as it was the military success against the Wallies that had made the Nazi the powerhouse that we know, without that the most shining example of fascist remain Benny.

Both Paris and London will happyly sell Jugoslavia to keep Italy neutral and occupied so she can't meaningfully support the Germans
 
Well the situation would be different if Italy decides to attack in 1940. Since the posibility of other countries joining in the fighting the Yugoslavs can concentrate their forces much better.

All neighbouring countries wanted a piece of Yugoslavia, with no overlap. So I think an agreement even with Greece could be found.

Croats will fight fiercely since Italy had its eyes on lage portions of Croat territory(Dalmatia).

That's the bit that bugs me the most. Croatia could have been a source of iron, IIRC and taking Dalmatia would have made difficult for it to become an ally.
So, detaching it from Yugoslavia but with minor border adjustments might have been palatable enough.

Both Paris and London will happyly sell Jugoslavia to keep Italy neutral and occupied so she can't meaningfully support the Germans

They sold Poland to Germany and Russia even though they had an alliance with them; one think they would have sacrificed Yugoslavia to keep Italy neutral.
 
Remember that there were actual war plans against Yugoslavia, plans that were constantly renewed along the years, while there was absolutely no plan against Greece and the invasion amounted to "throw men at the mountains" (something eerily reminiscent of the "throw men at the mountains" of the invasion of France).
 
All neighbouring countries wanted a piece of Yugoslavia, with no overlap. So I think an agreement even with Greece could be found.



That's the bit that bugs me the most. Croatia could have been a source of iron, IIRC and taking Dalmatia would have made difficult for it to become an ally.
So, detaching it from Yugoslavia but with minor border adjustments might have been palatable enough.



They sold Poland to Germany and Russia even though they had an alliance with them; one think they would have sacrificed Yugoslavia to keep Italy neutral.

But with Germany doing bad they might reconsidder their positions. Especially Romania and Bulgaria. Without those frontlines the Yugoslavs got a chance to inflict crippling casualties on the Italians. Even, if the Yugoslavs get smart and retreat into the hills, i don't think the Italians can break them at all.
 
But with Germany doing bad they might reconsidder their positions. Especially Romania and Bulgaria. Without those frontlines the Yugoslavs got a chance to inflict crippling casualties on the Italians. Even, if the Yugoslavs get smart and retreat into the hills, i don't think the Italians can break them at all.

Retreating into the hills it's a war winning strategy only if you wait someone to come to your aid; and to begin with that plan you need also to prepare supply and infrastructure before the war and have someone that supply you...otherwise the enemy go simply with a siege tattic with limited offensive and use of aerial bombardment.
The Wallies will consider Italy a menace onlly after Germany is dealt with it (and if Japan don't use this time to launch their invasion of South Asia) and having Benny occupy the armed forces in Jugoslavia it's all in UK and France interest
 

hipper

Banned
So what would be impossibly attacking Greece or Yugoslavia ?


Did they have any treaties with Greece ? Given Italy is not at war with France or the UK and they have bigger fish to fry, why would they care .

Britain guaranteed the independence of Greece in April 1939
 
Retreating into the hills it's a war winning strategy only if you wait someone to come to your aid; and to begin with that plan you need also to prepare supply and infrastructure before the war and have someone that supply you...otherwise the enemy go simply with a siege tattic with limited offensive and use of aerial bombardment.
The Wallies will consider Italy a menace onlly after Germany is dealt with it (and if Japan don't use this time to launch their invasion of South Asia) and having Benny occupy the armed forces in Jugoslavia it's all in UK and France interest

siege tactic? No, no. The Italians would need to capture towns and cities and reach Belgrade to force the Yugoslavs to surrender. Going into siege tactics is a horrible way to fight a country you try to conquer. Their casualties would mount up whilst the Yugoslavs will have the time to fully mobilize and gain the tactical advantage by stopping the invasion dead in its tracks. The Italians need to destroy and capture enemy divisions and take territory, whilst the Yugoslavs merely need to halt the offensive and prevent the enemy from taking strategic targets.
 

hipper

Banned
They sold Poland to Germany and Russia even though they had an alliance with them; one think they would have sacrificed Yugoslavia to keep Italy neutral.

Bizarre, I would have thought declaring war in line with a public commitment and continuing that war through six years until the German armies surrendered in the field was not selling Poland to the Germans.
 
Bizarre, I would have thought declaring war in line with a public commitment and continuing that war through six years until the German armies surrendered in the field was not selling Poland to the Germans.

Strategically...well yes, the Polish had been left alone fighting the German at the beginning of the war except for some feeble (the better term is pathetic) attempt of an offensive to divert troops; the overall plan was more or less akin to let the German (and the Polish) bleed in POland while the Wallies mobilize.

siege tactic? No, no. The Italians would need to capture towns and cities and reach Belgrade to force the Yugoslavs to surrender. Going into siege tactics is a horrible way to fight a country you try to conquer. Their casualties would mount up whilst the Yugoslavs will have the time to fully mobilize and gain the tactical advantage by stopping the invasion dead in its tracks. The Italians need to destroy and capture enemy divisions and take territory, whilst the Yugoslavs merely need to halt the offensive and prevent the enemy from taking strategic targets.

The italians in the end will not capture city or town...they will level them as even the italian command know how costly is urban warfare or simply bypass them cutting them from supply if possible; regarding stopping the italian invasion due to the terrain...well as border with Austria, the border with Jugoslavia was agreed because it gives Italy the best defensive terrain and OTL the Rupnick line aka the Jugoslavian fortification complex at the italian border was not completed at the time of the invasion and was not a serious obstacle
 

hipper

Banned
Strategically...well yes, the Polish had been left alone fighting the German at the beginning of the war except for some feeble (the better term is pathetic) attempt of an offensive to divert troops; the overall plan was more or less akin to let the German (and the Polish) bleed in POland while the Wallies mobilize.

given the alternatives what do you recommend? Convince the French to launch an attack before mobilisation? - the correct answer is to declare war in 1936 but only in hindsight.
 
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