How successful would indoctrination be in a victorious Reich?

How successful would indoctrination be in a victorious Reich?

  • The German populace would make the Japanese in WW2 look tame

    Votes: 18 40.0%
  • It would work to a large degree but not completely

    Votes: 24 53.3%
  • It would be the same as during the war in terms of effectiveness

    Votes: 3 6.7%

  • Total voters
    45

Wendigo

Banned
In an Anglo American Nazi War type TL, where the Reich has dominated the continent up to the Urals, enacting all of the horrific and nightmarish policies they had in store like Generalplan Ost, how successful would indoctrination into the Nazi worldview be on German society, the general population and the military?

Could they have achieved wide scale successful indoctrination in a generation or two with the help of the Hitler Youth, League of German Girls, complete control over the education system and the replacement of the Heer by a politically vetted and ideologically dedicated Waffen SS?

Is the idea of a completely ideologically dedicated and Nazified society like shown in CalBear's AANW TL plausible or worst case scenario?
 
"The German populace would make the Japanese in WW2 look tame"? I'd say they did IOTL. It was the Germans who fought until nearly every inch of their nation was conquered, not the Japanese. Even after their surrender, public polling showed that most Germans thought that the Holocaust had been just and that Germany was better off without the Jews. It wasn't until the 60's and a new generation was reaching adulthood that the German people started to really think critically about what they'd done. But many of the German generations that grew up before and during Nazi rule were unapologetically pro-Nazi to the end, even as they came to terms with the new political reality. I don't think you meant to imply this, but the idea that the Germans were an honorable people and just following their leader while the Japanese were fanatical hordes is wrong.

As for the actual question, I'd say in a victory scenario an even larger portion of the population would be enthusiastically pro-Nazi. After all, why shouldn't they be? Think of the modern United States, a nation built on the genocide of tens of millions of human beings and the slavery of nearly as many. Yet do Americans sit around hand-wringing? Every now and then, people will feel guilty, but most range from passively to fervently patriotic. Go back far enough and essentially every nation has been build on the corpse of another. As horrifying as it sounds to us, the Germans will see themselves as no different. A great nation that has carved out its place atop the world. Sucks for those hundred million or so people we killed, but they would have done the same to us if they had the chance, right?....right?

Of course there is no such thing as a nation with complete ideological indoctrination of its people. Your average German ITTL would probably happily regurgitate the propaganda fed to them by the Nazi ruling class. But would they be willing to die for the Fuhrer? For National Socialism? For the German people? Probably not. And of course there will be dissidents. There always are. But they will likely be disorganized and ineffective unless the state is on the verge of collapse. Humans don't really have the capacity to see things in "objective" terms or to analyze the big picture. Instead we just have our own experiences and hearsay to go from. And if your interaction with the Nazi state is positive? Or if you've never known any different? Why would you risk your own livelihood, and more importantly the livelihood of the people you care about, just to take a futile stand against the state?
 
In an Anglo American Nazi War type TL, where the Reich has dominated the continent up to the Urals, enacting all of the horrific and nightmarish policies they had in store like Generalplan Ost, how successful would indoctrination into the Nazi worldview be on German society, the general population and the military?

Could they have achieved wide scale successful indoctrination in a generation or two with the help of the Hitler Youth, League of German Girls, complete control over the education system and the replacement of the Heer by a politically vetted and ideologically dedicated Waffen SS?

Is the idea of a completely ideologically dedicated and Nazified society like shown in CalBear's AANW TL plausible or worst case scenario?

I'd say it's plausible for the first generation or so, but will become increasingly more difficult for the Nazi government as technology media begins to spread, first television, then later the internet. You can only keep the outside world out for so long, eventually the citizens of this Reich are going to see how much freer life is in North America, Australia, etc. Interestingly, the racist and anti-semitic indoctrination may prove more effective than the anti-democratic indoctrination after a few decades.
 

Wendigo

Banned
From Wiki:

During the years 1945 through 1949 polls indicated that a majority of Germans felt that Nazism was a "good idea, badly applied". In a poll conducted in the American German occupation zone, 37% replied that 'the extermination of the Jews and Poles and other non-Aryans was necessary for the security of Germans'.

37% is a lot. I wonder what the number would be if the same poll was conducted a generation after the Nazis won the war and amped up the genocide particularly that of the Slavs of which 80% were supposed to be killed and the rest enslaved.
 
@CalBear explored this in-depth in The Anglo/American Nazi War: Short answer: SS soldiers indoctrinated from birth would be indescribable sadists and sociopaths that would make Japanese Imperial troops shit their pants in fear.
 

Wendigo

Banned
@CalBear explored this in-depth in The Anglo/American Nazi War: Short answer: SS soldiers indoctrinated from birth would be indescribable sadists and sociopaths that would make Japanese Imperial troops shit their pants in fear.
Relevant excerpt from AANW:
On the early morning of the 26th, as elements of Third Army entered the burning husks of Brussels and the destroyed city center of Antwerp, 1st Battalion 29th, under strong air cover, advanced against the Mechelen Complex. Within two hours they had gained entry, within four, they had almost half the complex under control, the rest of the complex being defended by both heavily defended positions and intentionally collapsed corridors. Captured defenders were found to be Austrian conscripts with virtually no training. These prisoners readily informed their interrogators that their battalion had been in the complex for only a week, and there were only two companies of Waffen SS troops within the tunnels. It was clear that the conscripts were far more frightened of the SS troops than the Americans because “those German fellows are quite mad”.

They were so fanatic that National forces conscripted from France, Belgium, Norway etc who were somewhat indoctrinated as well thought they were nuts.

What can you expect from enlisted troops who were raised their whole childhood in the Hitler Youth.
 
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CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
In an Anglo American Nazi War type TL, where the Reich has dominated the continent up to the Urals, enacting all of the horrific and nightmarish policies they had in store like Generalplan Ost, how successful would indoctrination into the Nazi worldview be on German society, the general population and the military?

Could they have achieved wide scale successful indoctrination in a generation or two with the help of the Hitler Youth, League of German Girls, complete control over the education system and the replacement of the Heer by a politically vetted and ideologically dedicated Waffen SS?

Is the idea of a completely ideologically dedicated and Nazified society like shown in CalBear's AANW TL plausible or worst case scenario?
I actually thought the fully indoctrinated Reich population, at least those under the age of 40, by 1955 was one of the less "stretchy" bits of the entire set-up for the T/L. Anyone under 30 would have been raised in what amounted to a State religion with the Party and the Fuhrer as "God". Everything in the Nazi state was designed to indoctrinate, especially the Hitler's Youth and the League of German Girls. It was nearly impossible to escape the reach of the organizations (estimates are that a minimum of 80% of the eligible youth were members, starting at age 10, and this was in a world where the Reich LOST).

I believe that a level of devotion to the Party and to Hitler would have approached that shown in Imperial Japan, again mainly among the younger generations. The biggest question would actually be if the devotion was transferable from Hitler to the next Fuhrer.
 

Wendigo

Banned
I actually thought the fully indoctrinated Reich population, at least those under the age of 40, by 1955 was one of the less "stretchy" bits of the entire set-up for the T/L. Anyone under 30 would have been raised in what amounted to a State religion with the Party and the Fuhrer as "God". Everything in the Nazi state was designed to indoctrinate, especially the Hitler's Youth and the League of German Girls. It was nearly impossible to escape the reach of the organizations (estimates are that a minimum of 80% of the eligible youth were members, starting at age 10, and this was in a world where the Reich LOST).

I believe that a level of devotion to the Party and to Hitler would have approached that shown in Imperial Japan, again mainly among the younger generations. The biggest question would actually be if the devotion was transferable from Hitler to the next Fuhrer.

Of course this fact greatly reduces the chances that the future leadership of a victorious Reich would "moderate." The odds are far greater that they would get increasingly insane/murderous not LESS so.
 
I'd say it's plausible for the first generation or so, but will become increasingly more difficult for the Nazi government as technology media begins to spread, first television, then later the internet. You can only keep the outside world out for so long, eventually the citizens of this Reich are going to see how much freer life is in North America, Australia, etc. Interestingly, the racist and anti-semitic indoctrination may prove more effective than the anti-democratic indoctrination after a few decades.

I agree but how long did it take the US Government to change Russia our long suffering Allies to the evil monsters of the cold war?
 
the hitler victorious timeline is always a fun one to look at, everything depends on how he won the war really there was only a chance at the start as soon as he a two front war he was screwed. remove Uk make peace with france (vichy all over) then turn around and then savage Russia. the German attitute to race was dependant on the needs of the local Nazi appointee. in Poland for instance the was a massive differnece between the general government and the rest of poland, people were classified as german rather than polish so they could preserve the economic power of the nazi potenate. also how many servants would the german nazi elite need? millions or thousands?
 
The western alliance with the Soviet Union was viewed as a necessary evil. Churchill was perfectly willing to support Russia during the war but he had no illusions about them after the war. Then add on the coup that toppled the Czech government and the installation of puppet governments in the rest of Eastern Europe soured the Americans pretty quickly in the Alliance. Churchill's Iron Curtain speech in March of 46 was supported by Truman and his advisors because they had all ready decided that the Soviet Union was an aggressive and expansionistic power. So it a question of who did what to whom first.
 

Deleted member 1487

Even after their surrender, public polling showed that most Germans thought that the Holocaust had been just and that Germany was better off without the Jews. It wasn't until the 60's and a new generation was reaching adulthood that the German people started to really think critically about what they'd done. But many of the German generations that grew up before and during Nazi rule were unapologetically pro-Nazi to the end, even as they came to terms with the new political reality. I don't think you meant to imply this, but the idea that the Germans were an honorable people and just following their leader while the Japanese were fanatical hordes is wrong.
You got a source on that? AFAIK polling after the war showed only about 35% of Germans thought the Holocaust was justified, about the same number that voted for Hitler in 1932.

Edit:
From Wiki:
37% is a lot. I wonder what the number would be if the same poll was conducted a generation after the Nazis won the war and amped up the genocide particularly that of the Slavs of which 80% were supposed to be killed and the rest enslaved.
Yeah that's what I thought I remembered. That's close to the same number that voted for the Nazis in the last free and fair election. Remember though that for the US Gallup polling said about 35% wanted to exterminate the Japanese entirely during the war. I think about 1/3rd of populations tend to be a bit...aggro?
 

Deleted member 1487

One nuclear weapon test in the USSR.
Wasn't it the Berlin Blockade? Things collapsed pretty rapidly post-WW2 and by 1948 the Soviets were the new rival. That nuclear test just put the fear of god into the American people that nuclear annihilation was around the corner
 
"Nothing succeeds like success". In this scenario not only has Every German been bombarded with propaganda/indoctrination since the early 1930's, but Nazi ideology has been shown to be victorious. Germany IS the ruler of continental Europe and to the Urals. The elimination of the Jews, Gypsies, many Slavs has been proven a good thing as the "stab in the back" was not repeated, and Germany (and individual Germans) have benefited from the acquisition of wealth and property formerly in the hands of Untermenschenen. While Hitler was the central figure, even he knew he was not immortal and the plan was to create a state and ideology to last a thousand years. While any new Fuhrer after Hitler would not have the same "Godlike" aura, the ideology of Nazism would reign triumphant. The reality would be that for the Germans of the Grossdeutches Reich life would be very good materially - so even when information tech devises the internet, satellite broadcasts etc the "seduction" of the non-Nazi world will be limited. Certainly for at least the first 50 years after a victorious Germany Aryans will have no cause for discontent.

In fact,as time goes on the population will become more and more lockstep as a larger percentage are raised from birth totally inculcated with Nazi ideology. Don't forget a significant percentage of adult Germans who were already "formed" by the early 1930's were enthusiastic supporters of Nazism, and many others went along.
 

Wendigo

Banned
How successful was the USSR?

I believe a victorious Reich would have a more successfully indoctrinated population than the USSR partially due to the fact that the quality of life for your average German citizen would be substantially better than the average Soviet citizen in the Cold War which leads to a higher level of satisfaction with the Nazi Party/Government.

Of course said quality of life would be due to the whole of Europe being plundered and raped by the Nazi high command plus the millions of Slavs who would be enslaved and worked to death reconstructing cities, building fortifications, working in factories and other manual labor/dirty/dangerous jobs not fit for "Aryans."

CalBear summed it up perfectly in his TL:

Modern readers, even casual students of 20th Century history, often fail to realize the remarkably high standard of living enjoyed by the average German in the early 1950s.

After the end of the Allied bombing offensive in 1947, Inner Germany rapidly recovered from the remarkably wide-spread damage that RAF Lancasters and USAAF B-17 & 29s had visited on Germany. Fully half the conscripted labor provided by the Molotov government in 1948-52 was employed (in 20 hour days) on the reconstruction of German cities and infrastructure with the result being fully rebuilt cities rising Phoenix-like from the ashes of the Allied 1940-47 bombings. German citizens who did not fall befoul of the Gestapo, which to most Germans had become more of a Boogeyman than actual threat as dissent (and dissenters) disappeared from daily life, enjoyed full employment, seven weeks of paid vacation (ten weeks in the case of Party members) subsidized by the Reich Government, and free medical and dental care. The Reichmark was the most powerful currency on the Continent, allowing German travelers incredible purchasing power on their regular trips to France, Italy and the rest of Occupied Europe, and the Mark’s strength continued into the neutral states of Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland where luxury items, including some products from the West unavailable within Occupied Europe, could be secured for the trip home. Through these shopping adventures the average Reich citizen was able to keep themselves well supplied with otherwise embargoed consumer goods ranging from exotic spices from the East and other foodstuffs including oranges from Florida and avocados from California to inexpensive appliances, with the Mark’s buying power allowing the average housefrau in Berlin to enjoy luxuries virtually unknown outside to any other in Europe except the ruling elite. Even the average American family did not enjoy the leisure time, easy work life, and buying power that were common across Inner Germany.

The Reich citizen was constantly reminded of how good their life was by the Party controlled media. Be it radio, films, or the new television, the media showed constant reminders of the innate superiority of the Aryan Race to all other. Cleverly written “news” programs and films showed the seething unrest rampant across the U.S., massive food riots in England and open civil war cross India. None of these were true, but with no independent source of information the Reich citizens did not know this. What they did know was that the Americans were gangsters, the British brutal colonizers, and that the Allied armies were gathered from the scum of the Earth. No Reich citizen doubted, even for a moment, that barbarism would descend on the entire world if the shining list of National Socialism was extinguished.
 
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