How strong can a wanked slavic pagan russia be?

[Gukpard]

Let's say that some slavic pagan version of Plato rises in the mid 700s, and he creates a form of pagan renaissance in eastern europe and while this fails to prevent Poland, the balkans and the baltics from adopting christianity, a eastern slavic state covering Belarus, parts of Russia, ukraine (without crimea at first), is formed, how succesfull can this state be? Could this russia still conquers siberia in the XVI century as OTL? And how this reformed slavic paganism could look like? Would this Russia be to slavism what Zoroastrianism was to Persia, a "national" religion that would be always related to slavs?

I planned to post here a map showing the extension of slavic paganism in the 700s AD, but I couldn't find any, if you have one please comment it for me to post here

Begin

 

[ArchimedesCircle]

I planned to post here a map showing the extension of slavic paganism in the 700s AD, but I couldn't find any, if you have one please comment it for me to post here

Most of the southern slavs are going to be Christian due to geography. The eastern and western Slavs will work for your purposes though.

Let's say that some slavic pagan version of Plato rises in the mid 700s, and he creates a form of pagan renaissance in eastern europe and while this fails to prevent Poland, the balkans and the baltics from adopting christianity, a eastern slavic state covering Belarus, parts of Russia, ukraine (without crimea at first), is formed, how succesfull can this state be?

It depends. If it can keep its head down and avoid the Christian, Muslim and Jewish (Khazaria!) empires that will inevitably go after it, it probably has a chance. But that's a big if, and its low population is going to make it vulnerable to whatever this timeline's version of the Crusades are. That said, with a PoD in the 7th century, you can probably strengthen pagan positions by killing Boniface and butterflying away Charlemagne. Inevitably someone else will start spreading Christianity 'by the cross and the sword', but getting rid of those two will buy you some time.

Could this russia still conquers siberia in the XVI century as OTL?

Again, it depends. If Siberia stays pagan then it should be easy pickings. But if it converts to Islam like in OTL, I'm not sure this alternate Russia would be able to take it without repercussions. This is all assuming they survive long enough for eastern expansion to be a possibility, which is not a given.

And how this reformed slavic paganism could look like?

And here we get to the hardest part of this topic. We don't have a great idea of what Slavic paganism really looked like. Sure we know some of the gods and we know some of the superficial stuff, but there's really no records of the actual faith itself. I expect it would pick up some of the ideas of the Abrahamic faiths over time, and possibly even some Buddhist or Manichaean concepts as well if the trade routes go through it.

Would this Russia be to slavism what Zoroastrianism was to Persia, a "national" religion that would be always related to slavs?

The nice thing about alternate timelines is that you can decide on this one for yourself

 

[Gukpard]

It depends. If it can keep its head down and avoid the Christian, Muslim and Jewish (Khazaria!) empires that will inevitably go after it, it probably has a chance. But that's a big if, and its low population is going to make it vulnerable to whatever this timeline's version of the Crusades are.

Wait, I always tough that the main advantage of the slavs was it's superior population....

 

[ArchimedesCircle]

Wait, I always tough that the main advantage of the slavs was it's superior population....

Well, the seventh century is still in the middle of the Slavic migration. The tribes hadn't had time to settle down into sedentary lifestyles and start making more Slavs.

 

[Gukpard]

Well, the seventh century is still in the middle of the Slavic migration. The tribes hadn't had time to settle down into sedentary lifestyles and start making more Slavs.

Let's say that this slavic Plato is born in the 720s, he comes from a greek family in Crimea and learn about the slavs and their fate, and so he learn their language and begin to write their chronicles, while the proto-russians settle in the region of the Dnieper and then begin to develop it and increase their population, what could happen after that? Could a Kingdom rise, and proceed to spread it's "formal" version of the religion with a holy book around?

 

[BBadolato]

What do we mean by a Slavic Russia? Anything before Rurik in the late 800's would be hard to go parse out, the Slavic reforms of Vladimir lasting and he doesn't convert to Christianity, that might be more workable. However, that could lead a dangerous situation if the Kievan Rus is still a confederation of principalities.

 

[Gukpard]

What do we mean by a Slavic Russia? Anything before Rurik in the late 800's would be hard to go parse out, the Slavic reforms of Vladimir lasting and he doesn't convert to Christianity, that might be more workable. However, that could lead a dangerous situation if the Kievan Rus is still a confederation of principalities.

Well, as the title says, it is a "slavic pagan russia". It does not needs to be called russia, just to be a large eastern slavic state centered in Ukraine, Belarus and western-central Russia

the Slavic reforms of Vladimir lasting and he doesn't convert to Christianity, that might be more workable. However, that could lead a dangerous situation if the Kievan Rus is still a confederation of principalities.

The PoD is 701 AD, and so it gives more room to reform

 

[Arkenfolm]

I don't really see why it would be too implausible for a pagan Russia to conquer all the way to the Pacific like in OTL. Once you remove the Turkic states along the Volga (Volga Bulgaria, later the Golden Horde and Kazan Khanate), there's almost no organised resistance until you reach the Pacific.

 

[Gukpard]

I don't really see why it would be too implausible for a pagan Russia to conquer all the way to the Pacific like in OTL. Once you remove the Turkic states along the Volga (Volga Bulgaria, later the Golden Horde and Kazan Khanate), there's almost no organised resistance until you reach the Pacific.

I agree, but the problem are the mongols who are coming in the 13th century

Plus this russia would be pressed from the west to, just waiting to make a crusade against the pagans

 

[Achaemenid Rome]

I agree, but the problem are the mongols who are coming in the 13th century

Plus this russia would be pressed from the west to, just waiting to make a crusade against the pagans

Would a pagan Russia have been assimilated to speaking another language, like the Baltic Prussians?

 

[trurle]

Let's say that this slavic Plato is born in the 720s, he comes from a greek family in Crimea and learn about the slavs and their fate, and so he learn their language and begin to write their chronicles, while the proto-russians settle in the region of the Dnieper and then begin to develop it and increase their population, what could happen after that? Could a Kingdom rise, and proceed to spread it's "formal" version of the religion with a holy book around?

Unlikely to work fast. The religious beliefs of era were too diverse and labile for people to feel the need to convert. You need a very favourable conditions (similar to plagues which preceded Muslim conquests) to take off. The critical problem limiting conversions on first step would be also the lack of any literacy culture. How do you expect people to follow holy book if entire settlement is illiterate? Cyrillic scripts were created only in 9th century IOTL.

 

[ArchimedesCircle]

Let's say that this slavic Plato is born in the 720s, he comes from a greek family in Crimea and learn about the slavs and their fate, and so he learn their language and begin to write their chronicles, while the proto-russians settle in the region of the Dnieper and then begin to develop it and increase their population, what could happen after that? Could a Kingdom rise, and proceed to spread it's "formal" version of the religion with a holy book around?

Unlikely to work fast. The religious beliefs of era were too diverse and labile. You need a very favourable conditions (similar to plagues which preceded Muslim conquests) to take off. The critical problem limiting conversions on first step would be also the lack of any literacy culture. How do you expect people to follow holy book if entire settlement is illiterate? Cyrillic scripts were created only in 10th century IOTL.

There's also the problem that any Greek born in Crimea in 702 is going to be a Christian, at least in name. Why would they go on to adopt a pagan faith? It has happened before, like with Julian the Apostate, but it's unlikely and needs a good explanation.

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

There's also the problem that any Greek born in Crimea in 702 is going to be a Christian, at least in name. Why would they go on to adopt a pagan faith? It has happened before, like with Julian the Apostate, but it's unlikely and needs a good explanation.

It's not that hard to imagine why someone might convert. Spend enough time among those of another culture, make friends, find a woman, partake in their customs, holidays, festivals, and so on, and you might start to fall in love with it. Athelstan from the show Vikings is a good example of this, though of course he 'finds God' again by the end. In any case, a basic academic interest is a good place to start.

I also don't see that it's unlikely. If one can convert from a native Pagan faith to Christianity, then one can convert from Christianity to a Pagan faith just as easily.

 

[Gukpard]

Would a pagan Russia have been assimilated to speaking another language, like the Baltic Prussians?

I don't know, probably it would continue speaking it's proto russian

By the way if the faith reforms it wouldn't be called pagan, just Slavism or something (I guess)

Unlikely to work fast. The religious beliefs of era were too diverse and labile for people to feel the need to convert. You need a very favourable conditions (similar to plagues which preceded Muslim conquests) to take off. The critical problem limiting conversions on first step would be also the lack of any literacy culture. How do you expect people to follow holy book if entire settlement is illiterate? Cyrillic scripts were created only in 9th century IOTL.

Here the thing: most of the slavs already believed on that faith, they only need to convert the neighbour peoples

This "Russian Plato" only needs to make the faith something official, he could write their customs in greek and help the church to organize a hierarchy....Also, based on that and on @Achaemenid Rome comment, this could result on the russian language borrowing letters from the greek language

 

[trurle]

Here the thing: most of the slavs already believed on that faith, they only need to convert the neighbour peoples

It would be something like ancient Shinto faith. Messy and utterly unmanageable. With local gods around each corner, no hierarchy, and no united ritual.

IOTL, Shinto was resurrected from dead in 19th century by Japanese nationalists. I observed the similar attempts in Russia (to create Slavic Native Faith) in early 21st century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinbutsu_bunri
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_Native_Faith

Just take into account what ancient Slavic paganism was likely as diverse and unstable as ancient Japanese Shinto. Actually, given distances and diversity of biomes in Slavic land, ancient Slavic paganism was likely too diverse for even lousiest form of integration.

 

[ArchimedesCircle]

It's not that hard to imagine why someone might convert. Spend enough time among those of another culture, make friends, find a woman, partake in their customs, holidays, festivals, and so on, and you might start to fall in love with it. Athelstan from the show Vikings is a good example of this, though of course he 'finds God' again by the end. In any case, a basic academic interest is a good place to start.

I also don't see that it's unlikely. If one can convert from a native Pagan faith to Christianity, then one can convert from Christianity to a Pagan faith just as easily.

Conversions from monotheism to polytheism are incredibly rare. They aren't unheard of, but they're very rare. This is mainly because most polytheistic systems don't really have a reward in the the afterlife for following the faith. For being a good warrior or a good person, sure. But very few polytheistic groups say that you need to follow the gods for eternal rewards. Christianity does say that you have to follow god for eternal rewards, and that if you leave the faith your soul will burn in hell for eternity.

But this isn't a plausibility thread and I like this concept. So let's role with OPs idea. Like I said, it would be really unlikely but that's kind of the point of great men PoDs, right?

Anyways, let's speculate on what this pagan Slavic culture will look like. Firstly, this guy is coming before Cyrillic was a thing, so I expect that the state(s) that stem from this will use the Greek alphabet or at least a modified version of it. Religiously I think that a lot of Abrahamic themes are going to get mixed into the faith. I expect that there's going to be a lot of emphasis on the chief deity, and that the other gods will be 'demoted', so to speak. Either Perun or Rod are probably your best bet for supreme deity. There's also going to likely be a new belief for the afterlife (see my above comments on conversion for why). There might also be an antagonistic deity, and maybe some sacrificial themes, as well as some possibly gnostic/dualistic/neoplatonic ideas worked in as well.

Here's my idea for the creation myth:

In the beginning there was nothing but an eternal storm, and the god Rod. Rod did battle with the storm for eternity until one day he captured a part of the storm. From the lightning of the storm Rod created Perun and from the rain of the storm he created Veles. From the storm's burning fire he created Svarog and from the dark clouds he created Chernobog. With these gods he vanquished the storm and brought order to the world. He used the storm's power to create the other gods and to create life. And for a time all was good and the world was a paradise of everlasting life. But Chernoborg grew jealous of Rod. Together with Veles and other gods he attacked Rod. The battle was long and hard but eventually Chernobog was defeated and cursed, and Veles was banished to the underworld. But the world was now barren. Rod, who had been attacked during the fight, sacrificed himself to become the Great World Tree, bringing life back to the world at the cost of the existence of death. Perun, the first son of Rod, took his father's place as protector of life. Chernobog was cursed and banished, only to be worshiped by magicians and murderers. Veles took refuge from in the underworld beneath the roots of Rod.

And the afterlife idea:

Those who live a good life and serve Perun will be rewarded with life eternal at the crown of the World Tree, while sinners will be punished for all eternity by the venom of Veles within the cold and watery underworld. Those who die in battle in service of Perun will become part of his army to protect the world from Veles and Chernobog.

... Wow this went a lot more in depth than I meant to when I started writing it.

 

[Salvador79]

Biggest problem is with your Slavic Plato.
I don`t mean to say there couldn`t be bright and even educated minds among the Slavs.
What I don`t see, though, is the audience which Plato had and which made for his impact.
You see, Plato lived in a society with what we`d call a powerful middle class, which had some leisure time to spares and the cultural models to emphasise, philosophy and other not immediately useful things. (Or rather, it was useful for convincing your fellow citizens in a democratic assembly.)
Slavic societies of the 7th century were much less urbanised, mercantilised etc.
Plato worked himself up against a mainstream of practically useful sophists, and he had lots of listeners and disciples.
In short, even if you had a Slavic Plato, you still wouldn`t get a Slavic Academy together.
And the Eastern Slavs provide the least fertile ground of all for such a formal philosophical culture.
If anywhere, such thoughts might have developed in the South, in direct opposition to Christianity. But then again, that would be a tough call, to cultivate yourself in contact with Christian Greek culture and then to reject it wholesale in favour of glorifying your indigenous background in a way which your fellow Slavs won`t understand or deem useful...

You wouldn`t need a Slavic Plato, you`d need a missionary, only one who isn`t Christian but coming from a background which allows much more local adaptation. Buddhism is always a good candidate for that, but the only way it could plausibly reach the Eastern Slavs around that time is through nomadic invaders like the Göktürks, and such nomadic groups never took their newly acquired religions seriously enough in order to spread them to others at this point in time. But I would still say this is your best bet: change something in the ferment which must come from the Asian East, and make its impact on Europe`s Eastern fringe greater, perhaps through Old Bolgarian mediation?

 

[Salvador79]

Conversions from monotheism to polytheism are incredibly rare. They aren't unheard of, but they're very rare. This is mainly because most polytheistic systems don't really have a reward in the the afterlife for following the faith. For being a good warrior or a good person, sure. But very few polytheistic groups say that you need to follow the gods for eternal rewards. Christianity does say that you have to follow god for eternal rewards, and that if you leave the faith your soul will burn in hell for eternity.

But this isn't a plausibility thread and I like this concept. So let's role with OPs idea. Like I said, it would be really unlikely but that's kind of the point of great men PoDs, right?

Anyways, let's speculate on what this pagan Slavic culture will look like. Firstly, this guy is coming before Cyrillic was a thing, so I expect that the state(s) that stem from this will use the Greek alphabet or at least a modified version of it. Religiously I think that a lot of Abrahamic themes are going to get mixed into the faith. I expect that there's going to be a lot of emphasis on the chief deity, and that the other gods will be 'demoted', so to speak. Either Perun or Rod are probably your best bet for supreme deity. There's also going to likely be a new belief for the afterlife (see my above comments on conversion for why). There might also be an antagonistic deity, and maybe some sacrificial themes, as well as some possibly gnostic/dualistic/neoplatonic ideas worked in as well.

Here's my idea for the creation myth:

In the beginning there was nothing but an eternal storm, and the god Rod. Rod did battle with the storm for eternity until one day he captured a part of the storm. From the lightning of the storm Rod created Perun and from the rain of the storm he created Veles. From the storm's burning fire he created Svarog and from the dark clouds he created Chernobog. With these gods he vanquished the storm and brought order to the world. He used the storm's power to create the other gods and to create life. And for a time all was good and the world was a paradise of everlasting life. But Chernoborg grew jealous of Rod. Together with Veles and other gods he attacked Rod. The battle was long and hard but eventually Chernobog was defeated and cursed, and Veles was banished to the underworld. But the world was now barren. Rod, who had been attacked during the fight, sacrificed himself to become the Great World Tree, bringing life back to the world at the cost of the existence of death. Perun, the first son of Rod, took his father's place as protector of life. Chernobog was cursed and banished, only to be worshiped by magicians and murderers. Veles took refuge from in the underworld beneath the roots of Rod.

And the afterlife idea:

Those who live a good life and serve Perun will be rewarded with life eternal at the crown of the World Tree, while sinners will be punished for all eternity by the venom of Veles within the cold and watery underworld. Those who die in battle in service of Perun will become part of his army to protect the world from Veles and Chernobog.

... Wow this went a lot more in depth than I meant to when I started writing it.

Do you happen to know "American Gods" by Neil Gailman?

 

[LSCatilina]

Let's say that some slavic pagan version of Plato rises in the mid 700s, and he creates a form of pagan renaissance in eastern europe

The kind of society that existed in mid-VIIth century more or less prevents this to happen amongst Eastern Slavs. Conquering religions are relatively rare IOTL, an handful, and are mostly associated (at least regarding their appearance) with roughly unified polities, and state structures to really support and patron religions.
Russia at this time is not what we'd expect from this, you'd have to wait the IXth century to really witness something roughly looking as an early state in northern Russia. : if anything, the more sophisticated ensemble in the region was represented by the semi-nomadic confederations in the south, generally Turko-Slavs, such as Bulgars or Khazars who never really managed (or even attepted) to undergo a religious policy even when part of the elite converted to an organized religion (Islam and Judaism in the case of Khazars).

As @ArchimedesCircle said, furthermore, any Greek in 720's is bound to be Christian and is unlikely to reason in terms of platonicism, neo-platonicism or quasi-equivalents. Byzantium was quite aware of what existed in southern Russia, and any Greek in Crimea would act in the already existing frames of relations and quasi-alliance with southern Russia's confederations. If anything it could lead to Christianized Khazars, ending up as a slavicized entity (altough less so than Danubian Bulgars). If you want a Rus Paganism, you'd need to work on inner dynamics.

Now, I don't think that it would be really workable to have a triumphant Rus' paganism, even with this PoD. If you allow me, I gave my point of view why there, but roughly it comes down to the idea that Mediterranean and Western Europe, being the core part of the continent in the early-middle-ages, was bound to have a cultural and structural dominance over the rest, in particular when it met inner dynamics of reinforcement of power.
It doesn't mean that Rus' was bound to be Christianized (there's possibles alternatives about an Islamized ensemble as well), and you could see northern-eastern Slavic entities pulling a Lithuania given favourable conditions (altough less likely, would it be only due to the fact litterally sitting on the main trade road to Baltic and Black Sea) : but that would mean a significantly different Rus' with a possible even more confederal look-out (if you still have an unification of Eastern Slavic entities ITTL, which isn't obvious), which could mean a delayed Christianization undergoing Rus' conversion one sub-entity at one time, possibly reinforcing the defense of traditional beliefs in some of them tough, until the XIVth (altough you may want to butterfly away Mongols).

Anyway, I agree with @Turtle that a large revival of Rus' paganism in later history, Shinto-style, might be your best choice (especially if you had a Lithuania-like Rus'): a more lately converted Russia, with a strong nationalist feeling could pull what Japan did, and what is partially looking as such in XXIth Armenia, as in a nationalist-fueled unification and standardisations of beliefs, practices and rituals mixed up with "outer" beliefs.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

It's not impossible.

To me I think what you need is a unifying figure to rally Slavs behind. One way of doing it is to make a figure appear that believes they are the mortal vessel of the Chief Slavic god. Someone wildly charismatic and intelligent. Convince the other tribes and nations that they are this person and centralise the faith and it's nations behind this person. It's going to take a lot of work and even then success isn't guaranteed. Sooner or later someone is going to come knocking with with either sword and cross or crescent moon.

Three things need to be done for any chance of success. The Myths, Legends and laws need to put into a book like form. Formalise them. Secondly a written language. Some form of greek might be best for this time period. The third and the reason these others will work, is a strong force that puts anyone who refuses to use them to death. Fear is a pretty good motivator to stop traiditions.