Donald Reaver
Donor
Hard to believe there is not an informer or two on Zhukov's staff, standard operating procedure for the NKVD.
How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms
- Thread starter Geon
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Hard to believe there is not an informer or two on Zhukov's staff, standard operating procedure for the NKVD.
Is that Mad Jack Churchill I hear?
Those two need to have a cup of tea.
SMERSH and the NKVD had fully infiltrated Zhukov's headquarters, and even had some of his officers informing on him. They also regularly arrested and tortured people he worked or was friends with in order to gather dirt on him, and to remind him that he was in a very fragile position.
katchen
Banned
I checked Wikipedia. Sarin breaks down relatively rapidly--after a few weeks or months. As does Cyclosarin, which might is more potent (oil based rather than water based with an LD50 lower than either sarin or soman, and more effective in colder weather. Cyclosarin would persist longer. The V series of chemical munitions were actually designed as area denial weapons, but were not developed IOTL before the 1950s.
That being the case, it is very prudent and wise for refugees to stay well away from possibly contaminated residences. Chronic, low dose organophosphate poisining can have horiffic long term symptoms and organophosphates can accumulate in the fatty tissues, much as cannabis does.
As http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organophosphate_poisoning points out: organophosphate-induced delayed polyneuropathy (OPIDP), and chronic organophosphate-induced neuropsychiatric disorder (COPIND) are delayed chronic reactions to organophosphate poisoning. (IOTL, these syndromes are found mostly in farm workers who are regularly exposed to pesticides). OPIDP occurs in a small percentage of cases, roughly two weeks after exposure, where temporary paralysis occurs. This loss of function and ataxia of peripheral nerves and spinal cord is the phenomenon of OPIDP. Once the symptoms begin with shooting pains in both legs, the symptoms continue to worse for 3–6 months. In the most severe cases quadriplegia has been observed. Treatment only affects sensory nerves, not motor neurons which may permanently lose function. The aging and phosphorylation of more than 70% of functional NTE in peripheral nerves is one of the processes involved in OPIDP.[6][12] Standard treatments for OP poisoning are ineffective for OPIDP.
COPIND occurs without cholinergic symptoms and is not dependent on AChE inhibition. COPIND appears with a delay and is long lasting. Symptoms associated with COPIND include cognitive deficit, mood change, autonomic dysfunction, peripheral neuropathy, and extrapyramidal symptoms. The underlying mechanisms of COPIND have not been determined, but it is hypothesized that withdrawal of OP pesticides after chronic exposure or acute exposure could be a factor.[12]
Additionally, Organophosphate poisoning can lead to lower fertility in men and women.
ITTL, as in OTL, the first identification of organophosphate syndrome was Jamaican Ginger Paralysis, in which an alcoholic concoction called Jamacian Ginger, but adulterated with an organophosphate, caused neropathy and paralysis starting in the legs and fingers (Jake Leg) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica_ginger. ITTL, a lot of servicemen on all sides are going to be coming home afflicted with OPDIP.
We can expect a lot of controversy over whether OPDIP qualifies as a war wound, and ITTL, the organophosphate issue will set butterflies loose early when it comes to pesticides and their dangers--and civil rights---, because all of these nerve agents were originally developed as pesticides, rather than war weapons, and their less potent (but still dangerous when exposure is long term) chemical cousins, such as parathion, malathion and diazinon. These neuropathies are in many cases, irreversible. ITTL, we should all be cautious around pesticides and if professional pest control is ever necessary, make certain that the pest control company is not still using organophosphate or carbamate insecticides.
Garrison
Donor
So quite likely that the Allies will have to deal with huge numbers of refugees in the middle of winter who can't be sent back to their homes for a significant period and even when it is possible may be reluctant to do so. I can see that being a bigger impediment to Allied operations than any of the military losses as they can't just leave those people they are supposed to be liberating to freeze and starve; not to mention those who were exposed but have survived and need medical attention.
Patton would know that quote was from Robert E. Lee. Sherman's line is "War is Hell" which equally applies.
Geon
Donor
Military Briefing
And for those of you who may be wondering what Adolph thinks of the current situation....
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: December 28, 1944
Location: Kransberg Castle, Germany
Time: 8:00 a.m. [German time]
It was a sober group that gathered for the 8 o’clock military briefing that morning. General von Rundstedt was bracing himself for the inevitable explosion from the Fuehrer when he heard the bad news that was coming. Air Marshall Hermann Goering was also bracing himself for the tongue lashing he knew was coming with the loss of the majority of the Luftwaffe’s forces over Belgium.
At 8 o’clock precisely the Fuehrer entered the map room and the briefing began. For the next half hour von Rundstedt detailed the destruction of the 5th and 6th Panzer armies. He concluded this somber part of the briefing with, “My Fuehrer, in my opinion we cannot hold the territory gained in the offensive. We must order an immediate retreat.” Von Rundstedt waited for the inevitable outburst that all troops were to stand fast. What happened next came as a complete surprise. “Very well, general order an immediate retreat of all available forces,” Adolph Hitler declared with a tired but calm voice. General von Rundstedt blinked but decided not to look a gift horse in the mouth and simply said, “Yes, my Fuehrer!”
Hitler continued, “However, our troops are not to simply withdraw to their pre-offensive start lines. They are to withdraw behind the Rhine, all of them. Do you understand me general?” Von Rundstedt nodded, dumbfounded that Hitler was being so…reasonable. Hitler continued, “Once all troops are withdrawn behind the Wall of the Rhine I want every, and I do mean every bridge on the Rhine destroyed! We will turn the Rhine into an impregnable moat which the western Allies will break against like waves on the sea! And as they attempt to do so we shall bombard them with gas and use our remaining bombers to harass them with our surviving jets escorting those bombers.”
Goering knew such raids would not be able to keep the Allies busy that long. But every little bit helped. At least it would give him time to finalize his escape plans. The Fuehrer continued, “I have already spoken with Dr. Von Braun and he assures me that 4 more of the newest V2s of the type that rid us of the American general Eisenhower will be ready in another day or so. Then we shall show the Allies the meaning of true warfare.”
He then turned his attention eastward, “What about the situation on the Vistula?” “The Russian forces have withdrawn 5 and in some cases at least 10 miles back from the Vistula, my Fuehrer,” Colonel General Joseph Harpe replied. “They are equipping themselves and will doubtless return within a week at the most. And we believe they will also be equipped with chemical weapons.” “Then we shall be ready,” Hitler declared. “Has the chemical warfare equipment been distributed to the troops on the Vistula?” Harpe said, “Yes, my Fuehrer, it has been fully distributed by now.” “Good!” Hitler declared. “As the Russians return we will subject them to fire by both regular artillery and chemical weapons. Like the Rhine the Vistula will become a gigantic barrier barring the way for the Russian hordes to enter the Fatherland!” Hitler considered his words for a moment then spoke again. “Gentlemen, you know I served the Fatherland during the first Great War. One of the reasons that war was so horrific was because of the trench warfare that raged for almost four solid years. It is time for us to return to those tactics. We must rob the Allies of their mobility, we must turn the Rhine and the Vistula into two gigantic trenches which will hold our enemies and force them to accept a war of attrition. They will no more have the stomach for such a slaughter then their predecessors did in 1917. We can still force a favorable outcome to this war if we stand fast!”
The Fuehrer finished his discourse leaving his generals as usual baffled and wondering. General Von Rundstedt however, quickly affirmed the Fuehrer’s orders. After another hour of briefing Hitler left the briefing room and stopped Goering in the hallway. “I want to thank you for your suggesting your Luftwaffe doctor see me, Herr Goering. Over the last few days he has done wonders! I had not realized that traitorous Dr. Morell was actually poisoning me with some of his concoctions! How could I have been such a fool?” Goering smiled and thought back to when he had first introduced Hitler to his own new personal physician. The doctor had first asked the Fuehrer about his symptoms and then asked to examine him. Hitler was always antsy around doctors but considering what the doctor had done for Goering who definitely looked slimmer and fitter now then he had for years, Hitler agreed.
After the examination the Luftwaffe doctor had asked the prescriptions Hitler was taking. When Hitler detailed the medications Dr. Morell had prescribed the look of horror on the doctor’s face was evident. Hitler was told in no uncertain terms that some of these prescriptions were toxic and would slowly kill him over time. The Fuehrer suddenly became very agitated. The doctor had then prescribed a more sensible regimen of medicines including vitamins to supplement the Fuehrer’s diet and less toxic remedies for his other ailments. The Fuehrer had shortly after his first meeting with the good doctor appointed him as his personal physician and ordered the arrest of Dr. Morell on charges of treason. Dr. Morell was now awaiting trial before a People’s Court for attempting to poison the Fuehrer.
“Again, my compliments, Herr Goering, if it had not been for you who knows what that quack might have done to me,” Hitler declared. Goering nodded accepting the praise from his Fuehrer. Hitler did seem calmer and more relaxed in recent days. Hopefully that would make him less paranoid and allow Goering to complete his plans for escape. Goering knew the Ardennes Offensive had only given Germany some extra time. He was now fully committed with the death of his beloved Luftwaffe to his escape plan. He just needed the time to get the last parts of the plan ready.
And for those of you who may be wondering what Adolph thinks of the current situation....
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: December 28, 1944
Location: Kransberg Castle, Germany
Time: 8:00 a.m. [German time]
It was a sober group that gathered for the 8 o’clock military briefing that morning. General von Rundstedt was bracing himself for the inevitable explosion from the Fuehrer when he heard the bad news that was coming. Air Marshall Hermann Goering was also bracing himself for the tongue lashing he knew was coming with the loss of the majority of the Luftwaffe’s forces over Belgium.
At 8 o’clock precisely the Fuehrer entered the map room and the briefing began. For the next half hour von Rundstedt detailed the destruction of the 5th and 6th Panzer armies. He concluded this somber part of the briefing with, “My Fuehrer, in my opinion we cannot hold the territory gained in the offensive. We must order an immediate retreat.” Von Rundstedt waited for the inevitable outburst that all troops were to stand fast. What happened next came as a complete surprise. “Very well, general order an immediate retreat of all available forces,” Adolph Hitler declared with a tired but calm voice. General von Rundstedt blinked but decided not to look a gift horse in the mouth and simply said, “Yes, my Fuehrer!”
Hitler continued, “However, our troops are not to simply withdraw to their pre-offensive start lines. They are to withdraw behind the Rhine, all of them. Do you understand me general?” Von Rundstedt nodded, dumbfounded that Hitler was being so…reasonable. Hitler continued, “Once all troops are withdrawn behind the Wall of the Rhine I want every, and I do mean every bridge on the Rhine destroyed! We will turn the Rhine into an impregnable moat which the western Allies will break against like waves on the sea! And as they attempt to do so we shall bombard them with gas and use our remaining bombers to harass them with our surviving jets escorting those bombers.”
Goering knew such raids would not be able to keep the Allies busy that long. But every little bit helped. At least it would give him time to finalize his escape plans. The Fuehrer continued, “I have already spoken with Dr. Von Braun and he assures me that 4 more of the newest V2s of the type that rid us of the American general Eisenhower will be ready in another day or so. Then we shall show the Allies the meaning of true warfare.”
He then turned his attention eastward, “What about the situation on the Vistula?” “The Russian forces have withdrawn 5 and in some cases at least 10 miles back from the Vistula, my Fuehrer,” Colonel General Joseph Harpe replied. “They are equipping themselves and will doubtless return within a week at the most. And we believe they will also be equipped with chemical weapons.” “Then we shall be ready,” Hitler declared. “Has the chemical warfare equipment been distributed to the troops on the Vistula?” Harpe said, “Yes, my Fuehrer, it has been fully distributed by now.” “Good!” Hitler declared. “As the Russians return we will subject them to fire by both regular artillery and chemical weapons. Like the Rhine the Vistula will become a gigantic barrier barring the way for the Russian hordes to enter the Fatherland!” Hitler considered his words for a moment then spoke again. “Gentlemen, you know I served the Fatherland during the first Great War. One of the reasons that war was so horrific was because of the trench warfare that raged for almost four solid years. It is time for us to return to those tactics. We must rob the Allies of their mobility, we must turn the Rhine and the Vistula into two gigantic trenches which will hold our enemies and force them to accept a war of attrition. They will no more have the stomach for such a slaughter then their predecessors did in 1917. We can still force a favorable outcome to this war if we stand fast!”
The Fuehrer finished his discourse leaving his generals as usual baffled and wondering. General Von Rundstedt however, quickly affirmed the Fuehrer’s orders. After another hour of briefing Hitler left the briefing room and stopped Goering in the hallway. “I want to thank you for your suggesting your Luftwaffe doctor see me, Herr Goering. Over the last few days he has done wonders! I had not realized that traitorous Dr. Morell was actually poisoning me with some of his concoctions! How could I have been such a fool?” Goering smiled and thought back to when he had first introduced Hitler to his own new personal physician. The doctor had first asked the Fuehrer about his symptoms and then asked to examine him. Hitler was always antsy around doctors but considering what the doctor had done for Goering who definitely looked slimmer and fitter now then he had for years, Hitler agreed.
After the examination the Luftwaffe doctor had asked the prescriptions Hitler was taking. When Hitler detailed the medications Dr. Morell had prescribed the look of horror on the doctor’s face was evident. Hitler was told in no uncertain terms that some of these prescriptions were toxic and would slowly kill him over time. The Fuehrer suddenly became very agitated. The doctor had then prescribed a more sensible regimen of medicines including vitamins to supplement the Fuehrer’s diet and less toxic remedies for his other ailments. The Fuehrer had shortly after his first meeting with the good doctor appointed him as his personal physician and ordered the arrest of Dr. Morell on charges of treason. Dr. Morell was now awaiting trial before a People’s Court for attempting to poison the Fuehrer.
“Again, my compliments, Herr Goering, if it had not been for you who knows what that quack might have done to me,” Hitler declared. Goering nodded accepting the praise from his Fuehrer. Hitler did seem calmer and more relaxed in recent days. Hopefully that would make him less paranoid and allow Goering to complete his plans for escape. Goering knew the Ardennes Offensive had only given Germany some extra time. He was now fully committed with the death of his beloved Luftwaffe to his escape plan. He just needed the time to get the last parts of the plan ready.
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whatisinaname
Donor
Nitpick, I do not think that Von Rundstedt would give the Eastern Front briefing that would more likely to be Col. Gen. Josef Harpe commander of Army Group A?
Does this means that the Vistula–Oder Offensive will be sooner ITTL than in OTL (12 January 1945)?
Also does this mean that the German's are conducting a fighting withdrawal or are they just withdrawing, as the first option would make more sense?
Does this means that the Vistula–Oder Offensive will be sooner ITTL than in OTL (12 January 1945)?
Also does this mean that the German's are conducting a fighting withdrawal or are they just withdrawing, as the first option would make more sense?
Geon
Donor
Thanks whathisname for the information, I have accordingly made the name change.
As to the Vistula-Oder offensive I won't say anything regarding that yet.
The Germans are conducting a fighting withdrawal in order to buy time to get as many troops behind the Rhine as possible. Sorry I didn't make that clearer in my posting.
Geon
Archibald
Banned
God know how will this alternate WWII will end. It will end for sure, and within less than a year, but at what cost ?
Every time I read this TL updates I feel that Geon talent is that he picked up WWII near its end (November 1944).
Knee-jerk reaction "Gee, late 1944 the writting is on the wall for Germany, they have lost." Hitler is toast. Germany is toast.
Well, they may be toast, but it doesn't prevent them from being a nuisance. A nuisance that will fight with all resources left.
Feck, even Hitler may no longer be toast !
the wacky tactician in me who grew up with all kinds of wargames is thinking wacky ideas.
If the rhine is true stalemated, how about trying an Anzio-style landing east of Hamburg?..its not like teh Luftwaffe will be able to oppose it now. Land there, wheel to the rhine and have enough of a gap to build pontoon bridges.
If the rhine is true stalemated, how about trying an Anzio-style landing east of Hamburg?..its not like teh Luftwaffe will be able to oppose it now. Land there, wheel to the rhine and have enough of a gap to build pontoon bridges.
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poor Dr. Morell he became victim of rumor, that claim he poising Hitler,
yes some of medicaments he gave Hitler would be consider dangerous today.
and Goring will have his day of Morell trail in front of Roland Freisler the notorious Nazi lawyer and judge.
(Goring dislike Morell call him "Reich Master of injection" )
see this Video about High treason trails, the screaming voice is judge Freisler!
Morell trail will goes same way
yes some of medicaments he gave Hitler would be consider dangerous today.
and Goring will have his day of Morell trail in front of Roland Freisler the notorious Nazi lawyer and judge.
(Goring dislike Morell call him "Reich Master of injection" )
see this Video about High treason trails, the screaming voice is judge Freisler!
Morell trail will goes same way
I foresee some struggle between Zhukov and Stalin in the aftermath of the war. Probably Stalin will win but who knows. I doubt that Stalin will just remove Zhukov until the war is over, however, which gives the general some time to make his own moves. Also Julian makes a good point about the whole "don't shoot your political officer" problem but I think that for the purposes of this TL it's probably some thing we can overlook in the story. No historical account is fully free of some dramatization, after all.
The way Hitler is written in the last update reminds me of the way his conversation with Speer is depicted in der Untergang (basically Hitler doesn't become enraged when Speer tells him that he didn't carry out the order to destroy German infrastructure). His thoughts on returning the situation to something like 1917 is an interesting look into his logic. It won't do any good for Germany at this point, but it's going to make for a fascinatingly different conclusion.
The way Hitler is written in the last update reminds me of the way his conversation with Speer is depicted in der Untergang (basically Hitler doesn't become enraged when Speer tells him that he didn't carry out the order to destroy German infrastructure). His thoughts on returning the situation to something like 1917 is an interesting look into his logic. It won't do any good for Germany at this point, but it's going to make for a fascinatingly different conclusion.
Sergei Ramius in Red October was on a submarine, and senior enough for some leeway, but minor enough for the leadership not to be paranoid of him, and that in time when the leadership was less paranoid than Stalin.
I, too, add to the chorus of 'Zhukov cant possibly get away with this'. Can he get rid of the zampolit? Yes, maybe, but its going to have to be done far more cleverly. Shot by the Germans near the front, Tragic accident, etc. Even if he is momemtarily free from supervision, he's not free from observation, and a replacement (or multiple) will be en route from Moscow almost immediately.
Does he have a very narrow window? Maybe. Can he take his army back to Moscow and do a coup? Nope.
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