Exactly, and they'll follow the popular vote results by state as they always have. By the time the news about FDR does come out, the vote will have been finalized and submitted to whoever is designated to receive it (the Speaker of the House, perhaps?)
How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms
- Thread starter Geon
- Start date
- Status
Exactly, and they'll follow the popular vote results by state as they always have. By the time the news about FDR does come out, the vote will have been finalized and submitted to whoever is designated to receive it (the Speaker of the House, perhaps?)
Perhaps not but I suspect it will be politically impossible to have the kind of reconstruction we saw in Germany and Japan IOTL. They may not 'salt the earth' but the US won't lift a finger to help them rebuild regardless of Cold War realpolitik. Candidates for Congress and the Presidency are going to be vying to show how tough they can be on Germany.
bguy
Donor
Scientist Shan said:
The Holocaust and Nazi war mongering didn't stop us from rebuilding Germany in OTL why would it here? I just don't think that a pinprick air raid, even one that used chemical weapons, is going to so radically alter US policy. Maybe if these attacks continued it might, but it sounds like the Germans pretty well shot their bolt.
I just don't see the issue having that much weight with American voters after Germany is defeated. Post-war voters are going to be worried about the same things they were in OTL; labor strife and shortages of consumer goods, not about keeping Germany (and Japan) down. Any bloodlust Americans felt in the immediate after-math of the attacks will be sated by our retaliatory strikes (which will pay Germany back a thousand fold for these attacks) and by vigorous war crime prosecutions post-war. After that though the American public is not going to be ok with letting German babies starve or freeze to death, and the American leadership is going to realize that Germany is too important to the economy and security of Western Europe to leave in ruins. Both realpolitik and morality will support rebuilding Germany (especially once it becomes clear that Stalin is no longer our ally.)
So the American public will lost interest in Germany but they will be worried about the fate of German babies?
And the fate of Germany isn't solely up to the USA.
After being hit by nerve gas I think France and Belgium are feeling even more vengeful.
More like, "They gassed the Jews, and they tried to gas us too."
German submarines actually sank quite a few Swedish ships with no major reaction from the Swedes so I don't think they will do too much.
True, but those ships hadn't been hijacked by the Germans to carry commandoes equipped with nerve gas.
Donald Reaver
Donor
I do not expect that there will be any kind of genocidal response against the Japanese or Germans. The United States did not think in that way. At this point the United States was fully committed to the war and to ramp up a response against either will only be an incremental increase. There is not much left in the system to increase a heavier bombing response, they can and will respond with gases but what they have will be destructive but not decisive.
What I fear will happen is the the Soviet Union will be able to make greater advances against Germany and the front line will be further East than it was in otl. There will be greater war crime trials, especially against the Japanese, who I feel got off easier than the Germans did iotl. Most likely less rebuilding will be done, and stronger restrictions on the future governments of Germany and Japan. Both of which will rebound to the Soviet Union's advantage.
What I fear will happen is the the Soviet Union will be able to make greater advances against Germany and the front line will be further East than it was in otl. There will be greater war crime trials, especially against the Japanese, who I feel got off easier than the Germans did iotl. Most likely less rebuilding will be done, and stronger restrictions on the future governments of Germany and Japan. Both of which will rebound to the Soviet Union's advantage.
Actually, the plan proposed to Stalin (which he accepted) requires reducing the scale of the upcoming spring offensive against Germany, from what I deduce; fifty divisions are being shifted eastward under Konev to conduct the offensive against Japan in China. Basically, as I understand it, Stalin is trading off smaller gains in Europe postwar for increased territory and influence in Asia, particularly a sizable buffer zone with China, which he seems to be worrying more than a little about.
Problem is it means less pressure on the Fritzes in the east. Which could mean a stalemate in the West (those Belgies remaining may want to scarper outta Antwerp) and the WAllies holding the line until sunrise over Berlin. Or, if Ivan's there by then, over Munich, Hamburg, Frankfurt...
And who are the Republicans gonna run in 1952!! Nixon elected 15 years early...(well, Adlai Stevenson can't win in any possible TL)
And who are the Republicans gonna run in 1952!! Nixon elected 15 years early...(well, Adlai Stevenson can't win in any possible TL
)With how things have gone it wouldn't suprise me if a much larger number of the war criminals were to commit suicide before being taken prisoner. If that were to happen people will not have their bloodlust sated much by the trials that will happen afterward.
While the British have had a much longer history of having real war come to them than the US has even they were pretty vengeful after WWI iirc. Also, if the Germans continue to use chemical weapons, particularly if they use them in the east, there may be much more call for more dismemberment than IOTL. However, I think there would still be some form of Marshall Plan/s though with less rebuilding. The Allied goal will, likely, not so much be the punishment of the people as attempting to ensure that they do not rise again to wreak havoc. And with a lesser Soviet presence in eastern Europe there will be less worry of Germans becoming Commies, not to mention a potentially less significant/hostile Cold War.
Another thing is that with the use of gas and all of the confusion the Germans may capture much more fuel meaning that the offensive may not peter out nearly as quickly. Also, could the Germans effectively use gas on the Eastern Front as a defense to hold off the Russians?
While the British have had a much longer history of having real war come to them than the US has even they were pretty vengeful after WWI iirc. Also, if the Germans continue to use chemical weapons, particularly if they use them in the east, there may be much more call for more dismemberment than IOTL. However, I think there would still be some form of Marshall Plan/s though with less rebuilding. The Allied goal will, likely, not so much be the punishment of the people as attempting to ensure that they do not rise again to wreak havoc. And with a lesser Soviet presence in eastern Europe there will be less worry of Germans becoming Commies, not to mention a potentially less significant/hostile Cold War.
Another thing is that with the use of gas and all of the confusion the Germans may capture much more fuel meaning that the offensive may not peter out nearly as quickly. Also, could the Germans effectively use gas on the Eastern Front as a defense to hold off the Russians?
Last edited:
The electoral college meets in the first part of December to cast the ballots for President, this is well past the time the votes would be counted. FDR and Truman are elected Pres and VP. Basically who ever takes over is in office only for about a month until Jan. 20th.
As for the revenge on Germany, the 8th and 15th Airforces are going to have large stocks of bombs and fuel built up. Also they US/UK had large dumps of chemical weapons in France at this time, per "A Higher form of Killing" book. So it would not be that much of a problem for the 9th AF to load up and make tactical strikes when the weather improves on the German in the Ardennes pocket.
Vegetarian will be interesting if the US decides to put the 8th to use bombing in addition to bomber command. You might even see a squadron or even a group of B29's based over there due to the higher bomb load and ability to fly higher than the Luftwaffe can attack to strike some high value targets with a mixed load of chem/incendiary/explosive/anthrax cakes.
As for the revenge on Germany, the 8th and 15th Airforces are going to have large stocks of bombs and fuel built up. Also they US/UK had large dumps of chemical weapons in France at this time, per "A Higher form of Killing" book. So it would not be that much of a problem for the 9th AF to load up and make tactical strikes when the weather improves on the German in the Ardennes pocket.
Vegetarian will be interesting if the US decides to put the 8th to use bombing in addition to bomber command. You might even see a squadron or even a group of B29's based over there due to the higher bomb load and ability to fly higher than the Luftwaffe can attack to strike some high value targets with a mixed load of chem/incendiary/explosive/anthrax cakes.
So the Soviets are moving into China? Interesting. I'm sure they will be able to beat the Japanese forces there, but it probably won't be quite as quick as during August Storm. Here, the Japanese forces in China haven't been stripped to garrison the Pacific Islands much yet.
Also, Geon, did you see my post a few pages back about Unit 100? Apparently, they made preparations to use biological weapons against the Soviets in Manchuria. They stations cattle along the border, ready to poison them with anthrax when the Soviets invaded. Of course, in OTL that attack never came. I suspect it's half because the attack moved so quickly when it came, and half because they never attacked European or American forces with the same tactics they were willing to use against the Chinese. But in this TL...
Will we see biological warfare attacks against Soviet troops in China? The Militarist Japanese could use both plague bombs and anthrax cattle. I think in crowded barracks conditions and in dirty field situations, disease could spread rapidly...it might cause many more causalities than the several hundred dead on the US home front.
Also, Geon, did you see my post a few pages back about Unit 100? Apparently, they made preparations to use biological weapons against the Soviets in Manchuria. They stations cattle along the border, ready to poison them with anthrax when the Soviets invaded. Of course, in OTL that attack never came. I suspect it's half because the attack moved so quickly when it came, and half because they never attacked European or American forces with the same tactics they were willing to use against the Chinese. But in this TL...
Will we see biological warfare attacks against Soviet troops in China? The Militarist Japanese could use both plague bombs and anthrax cattle. I think in crowded barracks conditions and in dirty field situations, disease could spread rapidly...it might cause many more causalities than the several hundred dead on the US home front.
Well technically they meet in the individual states in mid December, the votes are counted in early January when the election becomes official.
However the general legal consensus is that if the President elect dies during this period his VP takes over on 20 January.
So under this scenario it would be President Wallace to 20 January 1945 and then President Truman (assuming he was still the running mate)
However the general legal consensus is that if the President elect dies during this period his VP takes over on 20 January.
So under this scenario it would be President Wallace to 20 January 1945 and then President Truman (assuming he was still the running mate)
Much harder target - aircraft and air-launched V-1s are the only things to have the range required, and the UK radar/GCI net is better than anywhere else on earth at the time. That means hitting the UK has a poorer payoff than hitting anywhere else.No love for the UK?
Also worth noting that prewar the British were pretty fanatical about gas protection. As I understand it the standard British respirator provides protection against inhaled nerve agents, but a full suit is required for complete protection of the skin. However, they were also issues with a gas cape (waterproof poncho, really) which should give some protection. However, if they're properly dug in with overhead protection losses won't be much worse than from a normal bombardment. I'd be shocked if US troops can't knock up something similar given 24 hours or so to prepare.
All in all, Hitler's dreams of reaching Antwerp are just that. They'll get a bit further due to taking Bastogne, but they were always attacking an area that was weakly defended precisely because an offensive made there really couldn't get anywhere against the forces the allies had. Once the Allies are prepared for the gas (masks to hand and under cover) we're pretty much back to OTL, and when the weather clears it's game over.
Air Chief Marshall Tedder was Eisenhower's deputy, so he'll immediately take over until a replacement is formally appointed (that's why you have a deputy - to ensure as seamless a takeover as possible if the commander is killed). Realistically, with FDR incapacitated but not yet dead that won't be until after the battle is over.
Archibald
Banned
I do hope Geon won't pull up a For all times with a grossly incompetent president Wallace screwing up absolutely everything (although he wouldn't have much time in this TL)
How about For all times mixed with drew Fear, Loathing and Gumbo ? Both heavily screwing America ?
Do Wallace and Truman love gumbo ?
How about For all times mixed with drew Fear, Loathing and Gumbo ? Both heavily screwing America ?
Yeah, and there'll be a deeper salient with lower troop density, which will be easier to cut off and roll up. Isn't there a plausible argument to say the Western Allies will push farther, faster? The Heer and SS aren't going to disengage a large portion of their forces from the east just because of what they did to the US.
- Status