MarshalBraginsky
Banned
With the demands for Hirohito's removal, does this mean that the Soviets might have a bigger role to play in the Tokyo War Crimes trial? They suggested that the Japanese Royal family was to be executed by a firing squad.
How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms
- Thread starter Geon
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RamscoopRaider
Donor
It's not gonna kill anywhere near a million, poreclion pots full of plague fleas aren't the optimal disease vector, especially against a modern hygiene, at best the Japanese will get a five digit casualty figures
Just because the plague is released does not mean it will automatically spread to everyone given the suboptimal distribution and modern hygiene and medical practices
I think not,
The chance is minimal that Hirohito & family survive the ABC retaliation. especially if imperial estate in Tokyo and Kyoto are Targets for Atomic bombs
With USA ABC retaliation against Japan, Stalin will play save for the moment not to anger the USA. Until USSR got itself ABC Weapons to defend there self.
Not to mention that bubonic plague is actually endemic in the southwestern United States, including parts of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada. Somehow, it hasn't killed everyone there yet, even before they had medicines to treat it (and see below on the efficacy of penicillin). Furthermore, the actual deployment of plague by the Japanese against the Chinese, who obviously did not have the same degree of public health measures as the United States, is less than impressive given the scale of this particular operation. Major, sustained efforts using a variety of diseases were necessary to produce five-digit death figures; more damage would probably be done by the inevitable quarantines and public health operations than the actual disease with an operation of the scale described. You might end up with a few hundred deaths and several thousand sickened to various extents if the outbreak gets particularly large.
Oh, and penicillin isn't effective against Yersina pestis, because it attacks (mostly) Gram-positive bacteria, while Y. pestis is Gram-negative.
And again, I have to reiterate that my feeling is not that the United States would not retaliate to the use of biological weapons against the mainland. It obviously would. I just feel that it would not use chemical weapons against the Japanese, but a mix of incendiary weapons, mining of Japanese harbors and seaways, and biological weapons of its own, since those would be far more effective at destroying Japanese capability and will to resist than poison gas. It also might employ chemical weapons tactically in amphibious operations rather than employing purely conventional weapons. If the Japanese hold out long enough, it would employ nuclear weapons, of course, and there would probably be less debate than IOTL about the morality of doing so.
Otis R. Needleman
Banned
My thoughts...we don't use gas or biological weapons on Japan proper because there are numbers of Allied POWs in Japan who could be affected. Also, no need to poison large areas of the country when we know we'll be occupying it. We'll just firebomb the living shit out of every Japanese city, with nukes as an extra, added attraction later on.
Not sure if we'd use gas tactically. Vagaries of weather can make your gas weapons come back on you.
After the Japanese surrender there will be major-league war trials and a MUCH longer occupation of Japan, maybe 50 years. If the Japanese thought we were out for blood after Pearl Harbor, well, after Los Angeles, their asses will be nailed to the cross. Their asses are gonna get OWNED.
Geon
Donor
Human Nature
Here is a new posting. Please enjoy and discuss!
Date: November 5, 1944
Place: Los Angeles
Time: 8:00 p.m.
As the all clear sounded residents of LA came out of their basements and shelters to see what damage had been done. They found surprisingly little. Fire and police authorities that responded to calls of where bombs had fallen arrived expecting to find unexploded duds. What they found were large shattered porcelain containers with fins attached at the back to stabilize the bombs in flight. Other then minor impact craters a smashed roof or two and a smashed car there was no major damage. Puzzled the fire authorities decided to wait for the Army to arrive to decide what to do with these fragments. Meantime the police proceeded to cordon off the impact areas to keep spectators away from the bomb sites. However, by the time a cordon was set up several curious bystanders had walked away with fragments of the bombs in their pockets so they could have a souvenir of what some were already calling “The Second Battle of Los Angeles.”
Army personnel arrived within ten minutes following the arrival of civil defense and local police authorities. They were equally at a loss to determine what the fragments were. The rest of the fragments were quickly gathered together and taken away to be further examined.
Later, many of those near the impact sites and those who collected "souvenirs," would be surprised to find tiny red marks on their bodies indicative of some kind of insect bites. Additionally in the coming days many pet owners would also discover that their pets-dogs and cats, were scratching themselves and showing clear signs of having flea infestations.
Here is a new posting. Please enjoy and discuss!
Date: November 5, 1944
Place: Los Angeles
Time: 8:00 p.m.
As the all clear sounded residents of LA came out of their basements and shelters to see what damage had been done. They found surprisingly little. Fire and police authorities that responded to calls of where bombs had fallen arrived expecting to find unexploded duds. What they found were large shattered porcelain containers with fins attached at the back to stabilize the bombs in flight. Other then minor impact craters a smashed roof or two and a smashed car there was no major damage. Puzzled the fire authorities decided to wait for the Army to arrive to decide what to do with these fragments. Meantime the police proceeded to cordon off the impact areas to keep spectators away from the bomb sites. However, by the time a cordon was set up several curious bystanders had walked away with fragments of the bombs in their pockets so they could have a souvenir of what some were already calling “The Second Battle of Los Angeles.”
Army personnel arrived within ten minutes following the arrival of civil defense and local police authorities. They were equally at a loss to determine what the fragments were. The rest of the fragments were quickly gathered together and taken away to be further examined.
Later, many of those near the impact sites and those who collected "souvenirs," would be surprised to find tiny red marks on their bodies indicative of some kind of insect bites. Additionally in the coming days many pet owners would also discover that their pets-dogs and cats, were scratching themselves and showing clear signs of having flea infestations.
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Otis R. Needleman
Banned
Believe Civil Defense would have had a reasonable idea of just what the bombs contained. No high explosive. No gas. Gotta be some sort of germs or insects. Nevertheless, the damage has been done. Americans will die and Japan will pay, and pay, and pay...
Devastation...
I suspect that there will be very few formal war crimes trials--many of the possible defendants won't live to see trial.
I also suspect that all the "rules of war" are just plain gone in the Pacific.
On another note, if they deployed the weapon in the United States, would it also be released in China at some pont? Or the Philipines? Formosa?
I suspect that there will be very few formal war crimes trials--many of the possible defendants won't live to see trial.
I also suspect that all the "rules of war" are just plain gone in the Pacific.
On another note, if they deployed the weapon in the United States, would it also be released in China at some pont? Or the Philipines? Formosa?
RamscoopRaider
Donor
It was released in China OTL
Formosa wasn't a problem for the Japanese though the Philippines seem likely
Pangur
Donor
I`m not 100% convinced about that. These days , for sure first responders will think that way. I can't speak for other groups however when I wa sgoing both my inital training & refreshers this sort of scenarion was covered but in those days I am not at all sure that the concept that bacterial warfare existed was well kwon. However once they porcelain pieces are shown to experts they would think about it
The Civil Defence guys might think of germ warfare, but it seems to be the Fire Brigade who arrive first - and of course they're not used to thinking along those lines. So I can imagine it might take a while for officialdom to isolate the areas where the "bombs" fell. So people are going to die. Dozens? Hundreds? It's a developed country in the Twentieth Century, so it's not going to be the Black Death all over again. All the same, the deaths that do occur will enflame public opinion. What happened to Japanese Americans in out time line was bad enough - God help anyone of Oriental appearance who's spotted walking the streets of any American city or large town, they'll run the risk of being lynched. And the rules of war in the Pacific Theatre will go out of the window, the military's going to be under political pressure to do maximum physical damage to Japan, as visibly as possible, and sod the civilian population. To firebombing you can probably add chemical warfare - I know people debate the effectiveness of gas against military formations, but a load of Mustard Gas dropped into a large population centre like Tokyo would be Hell on the civvies. I don't know if the Yanks had large stocks of Mustard Gas, but if they run short they might well be able to scrounge some off the Brits - the UK had plenty.
So one of the most horrific wars in history gets cranked up another notch. About the only good thing that I can see coming out of this scenario is that Hirohito is almost certainly going to hang, along with a lot of his supporters who were let off lightly in our timeline. If the occupation authorities are smart, they'll make the show trial and execution of Hirohito part of a thorough "de-Nazification" process, with every media outlet showing the Japanese people the crimes committed by their government and demonstrating the superiority of Western-style liberal democracy. That's if they're smart, which is doubtful.
So one of the most horrific wars in history gets cranked up another notch. About the only good thing that I can see coming out of this scenario is that Hirohito is almost certainly going to hang, along with a lot of his supporters who were let off lightly in our timeline. If the occupation authorities are smart, they'll make the show trial and execution of Hirohito part of a thorough "de-Nazification" process, with every media outlet showing the Japanese people the crimes committed by their government and demonstrating the superiority of Western-style liberal democracy. That's if they're smart, which is doubtful.
Given that plague is endemic in the area and LA had an epidemic in 1924-5, the health authorities would have enough experience to keep this from being a really mzjor problem. IMO
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Though wouldn't the execution of Hirohito open up a lot of problems for the die-hards who will certainly want to fight the Allied occupational authorities? Of course, if the Americans actually let the Soviets do the execution work, then who are the Japanese going to rally against?
That's why the execution of Hirohito would need to be a properly-run show trial with plenty of witnesses and hard evidence proving his guilt to the satisfaction of all but the most fanatical minority. If that's covered in every radio broadcast, every newspaper, every cinema, then it should be possible to persuade the average Japanese citizen that he's got it coming, or at least plant enough doubts about his divinity in their minds so they won't cause any trouble. It'd be a start at least. When in doubt I tend to come down on the side of justice, but it has to be seen to be done.
As far as the Soviets go, I can't see the Americans letting them have any real say in what happens to Japan.
As far as the Soviets go, I can't see the Americans letting them have any real say in what happens to Japan.
RE: “Of course, if the Americans actually let the Soviets do the execution work, then who are the Japanese going to rally against?”
As far as the Soviets are concerned, I can't see Uncle Joe letting himself be the fall guy for trying and executing the Emperor – or anyone else - unless the Soviets are first in and take full control of the country. Better to let the Americans take the heat and hatred for that and probably easy enough for him to corner or coerce them into following his plans. Which would, incidentally, change the lighting for the Korean stage several years later.
I'm also very curious to hear more thoughts on what are today called "First Responders" and health (public or private) authorities and thoughts on their capabilities and responses. Additionally, what role would the various intelligence services have?
As far as the Soviets are concerned, I can't see Uncle Joe letting himself be the fall guy for trying and executing the Emperor – or anyone else - unless the Soviets are first in and take full control of the country. Better to let the Americans take the heat and hatred for that and probably easy enough for him to corner or coerce them into following his plans. Which would, incidentally, change the lighting for the Korean stage several years later.
I'm also very curious to hear more thoughts on what are today called "First Responders" and health (public or private) authorities and thoughts on their capabilities and responses. Additionally, what role would the various intelligence services have?
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Why? The U.S. had had several years of pro-Chinese propaganda. Chinese laundries and chop suey joints were commonplace. Their proprietors and staff were familiar sights.
Otis R. Needleman
Banned
Agree re the Soviets. Just like in OTL we won't let them in, and Stalin will accept it.
Yeah, I can live with trying Hirohito, but he may well have committed hara-kiri before the Allies could get to him.
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