How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms

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I guess the complains about France giving back Saarland are based on the idea of the German population there being outnumbered/deported and the region being well integrated, which doesn't seem to be the case, and which doesn't seem like a neccesary outcome, given that the area is home to several million Germans. The demand seems far from unreasonable, it's a big chunk of the heart of Germany we're talking about. Even IOTL, Germany needed decades to abandon their claims to the eastern lost parts. I don't understand the negative reaction.

Said that, I'm enjoying a lot the glimpses of the Postwar world (the part about the Phoenix Vault is one of those reasons why I love Alternate History), and I hope many more parts of the world are covered.

It's because you don't pretend that much territory back plus the ok for reunification otherwise the treaty is history, expecially if:

- you don't have that much economic bargain
- you have been readmitted to the human race much later
- after more than half of century, sorry but after that time people have move on in this territory so there will be a big minorities of French and Netherlanders in that territory.
- the economies of that land after this time will be more integrated with the new nations.
- The massive deportation were already planned in case of this kind of annexation, as i said earlier that was part of the reason Netherland nixed that idea as it will create a new humanitarian emergency but here there will be less reason to do it.
- In OTL the German reunification raised some worries so that UK and FS will be so OK regarding that will be difficult.
- Nation don't like to be blackmailed in this manner (frankly even Italy will have some problem with that as that can be some request over South Tyrol) so expect that the EU will goes on without the German Confederation that frankly here is not so essential as is economical less powerfull.
- After WWII change of border are considered very very very bad, as that can mean a new round of hostilities.
 
Geon you forgot a detail

The 16 bronze coffins of Munich putsch death,
they bodies have same fait like Hitler and 10 SS officer cremated and dispose of the ashes on sea.
on the 16 bronze coffins, eider sell to Sotheby’s, or what i find better are melted down and used for bronze monument for Holocaust placed in first Dome of Vault of Vault of Remembrance


on Hitler final resting, what be better suitable?
that a German kick swearing the urn like Football over board or that the urn is fired by french ship Cannon ?
 

Goldstein

Banned
It's because you don't pretend that much territory back plus the ok for reunification otherwise the treaty is history, expecially if:

- you don't have that much economic bargain
- you have been readmitted to the human race much later
- after more than half of century, sorry but after that time people have move on in this territory so there will be a big minorities of French and Netherlanders in that territory.
- the economies of that land after this time will be more integrated with the new nations.
- The massive deportation were already planned in case of this kind of annexation, as i said earlier that was part of the reason Netherland nixed that idea as it will create a new humanitarian emergency but here there will be less reason to do it.
- In OTL the German reunification raised some worries so that UK and FS will be so OK regarding that will be difficult.
- Nation don't like to be blackmailed in this manner (frankly even Italy will have some problem with that as that can be some request over South Tyrol) so expect that the EU will goes on without the German Confederation that frankly here is not so essential as is economical less powerfull.
- After WWII change of border are considered very very very bad, as that can mean a new round of hostilities.

Well, regarding the planned deportations, if considerations about the humanitarian situation prevented the idea IOTL, it's reasonable that the same concerns would raise ITTL, all that it takes is that the greater animosity is not enough to dispel the pragmatic considerations, but enough to feel that Germany needs to be punished.

It has been also stated that France was adamantly aginst it, but the UK supported the entry of Germany, and also that reunification had a wide social support and was creating a problematic situation that was causing economic disruption, so they reluctantly made a non-binding referendum there, that was won. It's not like the events came out of the blue. You are confusing the most probable set of events with the only possible one, and even OTL doesn't work that way. But hey, we'll agree to disagree. It's just fiction after all.
 
I have to say that I am rather surprised that Cologne ended up being part of France post war. Cologne is not part of the Saarland Geon and is atcually very far off the French border and closer to Belgium or the Netherlands than to France.

It is far more likely that Cologne would end up being part of a Greater Netherlands, as it was included in Area A of the Bakker Schut plan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_annexation_of_German_territory_after_World_War_II

The most France can hope to get away with in my opinion, is the area bounded by the Rhine and Moselle rivers, which roughly correspond to the Palatinate. A French annexation of said area was proposed as part of the Morgenthau plan.

The area would be integrated into France as two new départements, which will likely benefit from a special regime very similar to the one existing in Alsace-Moselle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_law_in_Alsace-Moselle

France does appear to be a very centralised and very Parisian centric state from the outside. This is undoubtedly very true in a lot of respects, but French local authorities do wield a lot of power and influence at the lower levels. Corsica also benefits to a degree from a status similar to Alsace-Lorraine, albeit one that is far less wide ranging.
The special status in place in Alsace-Moselle, goes as far as original law texts written in German having primacy upon French translations. It was even permitted for local politicians to run political campaigns in German alongside French for practical reasons.

There will undeniably be a population transfer of sorts, akin to the one that took place in Alsace in 1919 to weed out recent migrants and collaborators. There will also be moves to "Frenchify" the area in a lot of respects. But from the fifties onwards, the status quo will gain favour and traction among the local population. Sure there may be bitter divisions between pro French and pro German sides, but considering that the place will become one of the main industrial centres of France, prosperity may create some vested interests locally that are happy with the status quo.
Deindustrialisation and the decline of coal mining further down the line, could led to a drastic reversal of fortunes though and if the area feels "abandonned" by France then all bets could be off. But considering the special set of circumstance that led France to embrace nuclear power like it did OTL, the same may not happen TTL and the French electricity grid might run on Saar coal for a very long time.

Regarding European economic prosperity with a divided Germany.
I think that it is very simplistic to assume that a divided Germany automatically means a poorer Europe. There is nothing that is made in Germany that cannot be manufactured in either France, Britain or the Low Countries. The removal of German competition will in fact give a shot in the arm of non German industries. ICI of Britain will take the place of BASF. Renault or Austin, of Volkswagen. France welcomed a lot of German technicians and engineers to kick start its jet engine manufacturing industry. The same will happen here on a much larger scale, with Britain and Scandinavia joining in too!
Now sure, a poorer Germany means a poorer Europe overall, but it won't prevent Western Europe from undergoing its own economic miracle. The centre of gravity of economic Europe may even in fact move west TTL, potentially never to return to the Rhine valley and Germany until the 2030s or even later.

The Europe of TTL will be led by Paris and London. With the potential for a lot of strategic cooperation between the two powers depending on how things go. I think for example that it is a near given that in the absence of German industry, TTL equivalent of Airbus will be purely Anglo-French.
 
Like i promised the Map of Germany after Second World War

9875363765_9967b0dced_o.jpg


Notes
yes there no Belgium anymore !
Walloon and Luxembourg are now Part of France.
Flanders is now part of the Netherlands, one reason why they gave so easy the Annexed area back to UGR.
Brussels and it municipality form a City-state

Lichtenstein got from France the Vorarlberg ( they were so happy ;-)
North Tirol went to Italy were it was reunite with South Tirol
the Original Saar is incorporate also in France
what is in this TL called Sarre is remains of parts of North Rhine-Westphalia and parts Rhineland-Palatinate and South Baden.
transport from North to south Sarre goes over France territory

Schleswig-Holstein including Hamburg, came back to Denmark.

there next the German Democratic Republic is also Austrian Democratic Republic a puppet state of USSR.

Hesse-Württemberg build out Hessen parts of Rhineland-Palatinate and Württemberg also upper Franken (of Bavaria).
while Bavaria including States of Austria of Salzburg and upper Austria.
Styria-Carinthia from the States of Austria of Styria and Carinthia.
 
Selling the stuff...

I am surporised that they sold the stuff--especially the blood flag. That could come back to haunt a future generation--especially since it will have a very well documented provenence--this IS the blood flag.
 
Well, regarding the planned deportations, if considerations about the humanitarian situation prevented the idea IOTL, it's reasonable that the same concerns would raise ITTL, all that it takes is that the greater animosity is not enough to dispel the pragmatic considerations, but enough to feel that Germany needs to be punished.

Between the use of gas, a even worse holocaust and the Phoenix war the Germans can forget any sympathy for some time

It has been also stated that France was adamantly aginst it, but the UK supported the entry of Germany, and also that reunification had a wide social support and was creating a problematic situation that was causing economic disruption, so they reluctantly made a non-binding referendum there, that was won. It's not like the events came out of the blue. You are confusing the most probable set of events with the only possible one, and even OTL doesn't work that way. But hey, we'll agree to disagree. It's just fiction after all.

The fact is that the UK will be wary to support this, sure Germany is a counterbalance towards France but is even the nation who started two world war and yes even OTL there were this consideration. The economic and social disruption will be not so large...due to the fact that the place will have a much minor number of Germanic people than OTL due to:

- mass deportation.
- 60 years of economic integration and people movin in and out.
- France can be really really ruthless in this case.

Finally the scenario IMVHO need to be reversed, it's the GC who will beg the EU for partecipation as it give her international legitimation and a framework towards reunification and border adjustment or/and better treatment of their minority. Here is like Austria demand Italy South Tyrol back otherwise she will not enter the EU...OTL the answer will be Rome giving them the middle-finger.

An EU-like organization will probably exist even without the GC with Netherland, France, Italy and later Spain and Portugal, without Germany France (who btw will be more strong due to no war in Indochina and probably a somewhat better management of the Algeria situation...as part of the OTL reason was a reaction to Dien bien phu) will try to form a similar relationships with Great Britain but much depend on De Gaulle.
 

Goldstein

Banned
Between the use of gas, a even worse holocaust and the Phoenix war the Germans can forget any sympathy for some time.

True, and it's not like Germany hasn't received a much harsher punishment than IOTL. Mass deportations would make sense, I just don't consider them an absolute given. I also don't see why Germany wouldn't try to play her cards after decades of utter humilliation.
 
Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall seeing anything about why Belgium no longer exists. Or Luxembourg.

Also, if that is the extent of Greater Denmark and Greater Netherlands I can definately see the occupied areas being quite Danishized and Netherlanderized after so long. I don't see the new "West Germany" getting those areas back, no matter how much they want to. Also, if they try to forcefully the Netherlands and Denmark will start screaming Lebensraum at the top of their lungs. And that if West Germany gets it back that it will be Sudetenland agreement version 2.

Also, France's actions in the Saar make it seem like the area will be much more French then German. To be honest, in these regions I see the people calling for reunification with "West Germany" to probably be seen as similar to the Aztlan movement in the United States (I think that is what its called) that calls for a return of the Mexican Cession and Texas to Mexico. The reunification groups are 3 small noisy group that probably number in the low thousands at best. Most of the younger generation will probably consider themselves as French as a Parisian (Or as Danish as a Copenhager or as Dutch as an Amsterdamer).
 
Between the use of gas, a even worse holocaust and the Phoenix war the Germans can forget any sympathy for some time



The fact is that the UK will be wary to support this, sure Germany is a counterbalance towards France but is even the nation who started two world war and yes even OTL there were this consideration. The economic and social disruption will be not so large...due to the fact that the place will have a much minor number of Germanic people than OTL due to:

- mass deportation.
- 60 years of economic integration and people movin in and out.
- France can be really really ruthless in this case.

Finally the scenario IMVHO need to be reversed, it's the GC who will beg the EU for partecipation as it give her international legitimation and a framework towards reunification and border adjustment or/and better treatment of their minority. Here is like Austria demand Italy South Tyrol back otherwise she will not enter the EU...OTL the answer will be Rome giving them the middle-finger.

An EU-like organization will probably exist even without the GC with Netherland, France, Italy and later Spain and Portugal, without Germany France (who btw will be more strong due to no war in Indochina and probably a somewhat better management of the Algeria situation...as part of the OTL reason was a reaction to Dien bien phu) will try to form a similar relationships with Great Britain but much depend on De Gaulle.


This just puts me in mind of that clip from Yes Minister where they talk about the EEC and how the British got in to screw the French and split them off from the Germans (butterflied away here with the animosity still well alive :/ ), the French got in to protect their inefficient farmers (not a lot changes ITTL :D) and the Germans joined to complete their application for readmission to the human race (even more so here...afraid I fall in the camp that doesn't see the French giving terribly much back either).

Speaking of, how is Britain? Did the Empire fall apart much as in OTL or did things get messy there too?
 
I don't remember Belgium being torn apart either, and why did Italy get any of Germany's territory, they were part of the Axis. Also, i'll be honest, I was hoping that with Stalins early death, there would be less German territory given to Poland...
 
I don't remember Belgium being torn apart either, and why did Italy get any of Germany's territory, they were part of the Axis. Also, i'll be honest, I was hoping that with Stalins early death, there would be less German territory given to Poland...

so to say "pulling the Cat out the bag"
the end of Belgium and who Saare became to exist and why Italy get Germany's territory.
will be explain in spinoff "How silent fall the Cherry Blossoms: Belgium" written by me and edit by Geon

stay tuned...
 
I had the hideous thought reading this update: what if they opened the sarcophagus and it were empty. Think of the neoNazi propaganda THAT would generate!

Thats enough of a risk that id imagine there might be a very discrete checking of the contents before the official opening.

Now wouldn't that have very interesting ramifications...theological even! I've been away and only now just caught to with the Vault story, which, like almost all of this TL is masterful. I do have a few questions.

There seems to be a rather sudden shift from a secretive investigation to a media frenzy. Even with Spielberg at the helm, I seem to think that the actual investigations would be done quietly although be thoroughly documented for disclosure well after the tomb was opened. I live TV event seems a bit too much given the sensitivity of he situation and the fact that in this TL, German de-Nazification was much more difficult and harsh.

Doesn't disposal of ashes at sea by a naval ship give the impression that Hitler's remains are being given a modicum of respect? Should French taxpayer money do this? To me, it would just make as much sense for them to be split among the allied powers and Israel to be dealt with as each determine best
 
Poster 1: What to do with the vault?

Poster 2: Blow it up!

Poster 3: Blow it up!

Poster 4: Nuke it!

Poster 5: Megatons!

Geon: Hitler was cremated and the vault became a Holocaust Museum.

;)
 
so to say "pulling the Cat out the bag"
the end of Belgium and who Saare became to exist and why Italy get Germany's territory.
will be explain in spinoff "How silent fall the Cherry Blossoms: Belgium" written by me and edit by Geon

stay tuned...

Oh Joy...a bigger Tyrol, Italy has been payed for this naturally?
 

Tyr Anazasi

Banned
I don't think Italy should get anything as in OTL they also did not get anything from Germany as they were considered co-belligerents not worth to get anything. Indeed, what some Italian politicians these days want to forget, they had to give up reparations against Germany as well.
 
I'm not sure it makes sense that Denmark gets everything north of the Elbe. Everything between Kiel and Hamburg seems really irrevocably German to me.
 
I'm not sure it makes sense that Denmark gets everything north of the Elbe. Everything between Kiel and Hamburg seems really irrevocably German to me.

on the contrary !
this land was Denmark, until the Prussian invaded and Germanizes it in 1848 and 1864.

Denmark just recall on Treaty of Ribe from 1460 were Schleswig and Holstein come under Danish crown.
 
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