How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms

Status
Not open for further replies.
Rice blight.

Yeah, not bad, but long-term it will be a pain for us, since after surrender we'd be responsible for making sure the Japanese were fed, even at a low level. Why spend money shipping rice in? And politically the sight of thousands of starving Japanese babies and children would never play well, no matter how much we want revenge.
 

Artatochor

Banned
Yeah, not bad, but long-term it will be a pain for us, since after surrender we'd be responsible for making sure the Japanese were fed, even at a low level. Why spend money shipping rice in? And politically the sight of thousands of starving Japanese babies and children would never play well, no matter how much we want revenge.
I dare say Truman would not give a damn about that. He'd let people starve. Not sure about FDR. Of course, this plays into Soviet hands, and we could expect that whatever Japanese population survives(if Soviets send grain shipments to act humanitarian) will be willful Stalinists. They are a nation that doesn't forget favors or wrong deeds done to it.
 
I dare say Truman would not give a damn about that. He'd let people starve. Not sure about FDR. Of course, this plays into Soviet hands, and we could expect that whatever Japanese population survives(if Soviets send grain shipments to act humanitarian) will be willful Stalinists.
The Soviets had enough trouble feeding themselves in 1945, they won't have excess grain to send
 
I forgot about that plan. Expect it to get a greenlight in this timeline.

Also, I remember reading somewhere that the Marines and Navy had requested permission to use Nerve Gas on Iwo Jima prior to the invasion, only to have FDR vetoed the request. In this timeline I expect there would not be a veto.

http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/13878.html

The problem is for this, like other accused or non-verified chemical weapons attacks during the Second World War, it's really difficult to take eyewitness accounts and reports of chemical weapons dumps as solid evidence that chem weapons were deployed on the battlefield. When it's used against entire divisions and deployed openly, then it's easy to prove use and justify open retaliation. I'd say that the use of nerve gas will probably be ok'd by FDR this time around because the use of bio-weapons against civilian targets is a pretty egregious violation of the Chemical and Biological Weapons Convention of 1921. Since the US did indeed have a no-first-use policy on bio and chem weapons, at this point the gloves will come off and the Japanese forces will likely be exposed to nerve gas during the initial invasion at Iwo Jima and likely Okinawa, although because of the presence of civilian targets they might hold off on that so as not to appear like the Japanese.

The problem for Japan here is that, like many other decisions of this nature, it's very ambiguous to the Americans who ordered the strike. The Tokyo War Crimes Trial is going to be focused on that question whenever the war comes to an end, and whoever the prosecuting attorney for the Allies is will have his work cut out for him. The emperor will likely be removed and probably put on trial in some manner. In addition, I'd assume that most of the military chiefs will either get the death penalty or at the very least will be facing life imprisonment for their involvement in ordering this strike.

I'll be really interested to see the foreign reactions to this strike. Churchill and De Gaulle will be shocked and likely paranoid that their own colonial possessions in the Pacific Theater might become targets for bio-weapons use. Stalin will probably reinforce the border garrisons in Siberia near the Manchurian border and order his own chemical weapons stocks to be rolled out in case of Japanese attack. This is going to be a really bad time to be Japanese...
 
Yeah, not bad, but long-term it will be a pain for us, since after surrender we'd be responsible for making sure the Japanese were fed, even at a low level. Why spend money shipping rice in? And politically the sight of thousands of starving Japanese babies and children would never play well, no matter how much we want revenge.

Well cynically the US could just slap a quarantine on the Home Islands; after all who knows what other weapons the fanatics might unleash?
 
The problem is for this, like other accused or non-verified chemical weapons attacks during the Second World War, it's really difficult to take eyewitness accounts and reports of chemical weapons dumps as solid evidence that chem weapons were deployed on the battlefield. When it's used against entire divisions and deployed openly, then it's easy to prove use and justify open retaliation. I'd say that the use of nerve gas will probably be ok'd by FDR this time around because the use of bio-weapons against civilian targets is a pretty egregious violation of the Chemical and Biological Weapons Convention of 1921. Since the US did indeed have a no-first-use policy on bio and chem weapons, at this point the gloves will come off and the Japanese forces will likely be exposed to nerve gas during the initial invasion at Iwo Jima and likely Okinawa, although because of the presence of civilian targets they might hold off on that so as not to appear like the Japanese.

Just a small point: At this point, only the Germans have access to weaponized nerve agents. Technically, although some of the relevant compounds were known to the Allies, they didn't realize they could be used as weapons until after the war. The US would be using only pre-nerve agent-type gases against the Japanese, mustard, phosgene, and the like.
 

katchen

Banned
Map of LA with bomb impact sites please!
One important factoid about LA that people who don't live in Southern California don't generally know about. LA has a huge black rat population. Those palm trees you see lining the boulevards often have rat nests on top of them. The ice plant landscaping you see around LA freeways are great rat habitat. When CalTrans started to widen the I-405 -605 for car-pool to car-pool lane connectors, they had to stop work for a few days because the landscaping was so full of rats it was a danger to the work crews until animal control could get rid of the rats. So the Japanese Army definitely knows what it's doing setting infected rat fleas loose in LA.
Also, this is going to have a major major impact on whatever movies are currently being filmed at the studios. Try to find out what's in production right now and who's starring. We'd all like to know.
 

katchen

Banned
Not to mention that bubonic plague is actually endemic in the southwestern United States, including parts of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada. Somehow, it hasn't killed everyone there yet, even before they had medicines to treat it (and see below on the efficacy of penicillin). Furthermore, the actual deployment of plague by the Japanese against the Chinese, who obviously did not have the same degree of public health measures as the United States, is less than impressive given the scale of this particular operation. Major, sustained efforts using a variety of diseases were necessary to produce five-digit death figures; more damage would probably be done by the inevitable quarantines and public health operations than the actual disease with an operation of the scale described. You might end up with a few hundred deaths and several thousand sickened to various extents if the outbreak gets particularly large.

Oh, and penicillin isn't effective against Yersina pestis, because it attacks (mostly) Gram-positive bacteria, while Y. pestis is Gram-negative.

And again, I have to reiterate that my feeling is not that the United States would not retaliate to the use of biological weapons against the mainland. It obviously would. I just feel that it would not use chemical weapons against the Japanese, but a mix of incendiary weapons, mining of Japanese harbors and seaways, and biological weapons of its own, since those would be far more effective at destroying Japanese capability and will to resist than poison gas. It also might employ chemical weapons tactically in amphibious operations rather than employing purely conventional weapons. If the Japanese hold out long enough, it would employ nuclear weapons, of course, and there would probably be less debate than IOTL about the morality of doing so.
Bubonic plague isn't a serious problem in the desert southwest for the same reason that the Plague of Justinian did not seriously affect the Arabs. Population densities of both people and especially rats are lower in the desert and that inhibits the transmission of the disease from flea population to flea population and person to person.
Also, in a year (1943), streptomyocin will be isolated and streptomyocin IS effective against Yersina pestis, thank God. In the meantime, mortality in Bubonic plague can be reduced if the disease is caught in time by surgical removal of the first bubos(raltively safe if sterile procedures are used).
 

Artatochor

Banned
The Soviets had enough trouble feeding themselves in 1945, they won't have excess grain to send
Then it is curtains for a lot of Japanese. The impact on world economy will be quite severe. If this scenario goes that bleak, I'd like an update centered around the 90-s, 00-s in a world that has less technological advancements and overall wealth than hours.
 

katchen

Banned
There is no way you're going to get a significant spread of plague with this attack. While those immediately infected will get sick, most plague will be bubonic which requires the flea vector. In LA you simply don't have a large flea infested rodent population in close proximity to humans - which is what you had in medieval cities and in current times China. Some of the sufferers may develop the pneumonic form which is spread by exhaled (and subsequently inhaled) droplets which therefore is more easily transmitted. Public health authorities will very rapidly identify the problem, and appropriate measures taken. Expect some panic, and disruption of war production in the LA area. Total sick would be well under 10,000 in my estimation.

The main effect will be on the postwar occupation of Japan - what goes on during the war will be determined by the facts on the ground - the only change might be the use of poison gas on Iwo Jima or Okinawa. The postwar situation in Japan will much more resemble Nuremberg.
OH YES YOU DO! Angelinos live every day with the fact that the city has a huge rat population. And it's rattus rattus, not rattus norvegicus. Black rats, the original plague vector. They live in all those palm trees you see in pictures of LA. And all that beautiful undergrowth. And along the verges of the freeways and now the train lines. Frankly, LA is damn lucky it hasn't had an outbreak of rat borne disease. It's a rat disaster waiting to happen--probably during The Big One.
 

katchen

Banned
I was thinking the same thing, with the clue about the elderly being impacted more; I'm just not sure if FDR gets infected or just dies early; I mean, this is going to put so much more strain on him.

Question - witht he VP spot vacant if that happens, and Truman already coming in, would Wallace appoint him Secretary of State and then resign, allowing him to take over immediately? It sounds like a wise plan to spare the U.S. some extra turmoil.



I don't like them, either, and will likely not follow a lot - I really just came because the title seemed quite interesting, and I suspect it's going to be a lot worse than just a number of royal families having troubles like my "The Mighty Houses Have Struck Out." But, I had the same question about written ones and sometimes dystopias remind us, as you say, that OTL, while bad, is a lot better than it could have been. While the poll I ran a while back on these was related to writing them, the results are probably similar except the newbies writing them part won't apply.https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=119265
If FDR dies early ITL, we get to have Henry Wallace as President for at least 1-2 years.
 

katchen

Banned
Where this will really hurt is in the slums and ghettoes, there there is a lot of rat-human interaction, and the relations between the people and the authorities is .... not friendly.

Cant you just see white policemen going into black ghettoes rousting all the locals out, probably preventing them from bringing ANYTHING out, and then bulldozing and/or burning the whole neighbourhood.

Meanwhile the poor are being forcibly deloused in industrial facilities and housed, probably in tent cities with no way to earn a living.

Social consequences for the post war era could be huge. Now that i think about it.

Heck, the provided housing may even be sex segragated, so families get split up.

Ouch.
Do you remember Wilson picking up one of those fragments and getting on the train at Union Station. Union Station isn't far from Little Tokyo. Or the barrio of East Los Angeles (though Boyle Heights is still part Jewish. Or South Central--LA's original segregated ghetto. I'd be very surprised if one of the releases WASN"T over South Central. Then again, pinpoint accuracy at night isn't easy. There'll be major repercussions if one of those bombs fell near or on a film studio, too. :eek:
 

katchen

Banned
The problem is for this, like other accused or non-verified chemical weapons attacks during the Second World War, it's really difficult to take eyewitness accounts and reports of chemical weapons dumps as solid evidence that chem weapons were deployed on the battlefield. When it's used against entire divisions and deployed openly, then it's easy to prove use and justify open retaliation. I'd say that the use of nerve gas will probably be ok'd by FDR this time around because the use of bio-weapons against civilian targets is a pretty egregious violation of the Chemical and Biological Weapons Convention of 1921. Since the US did indeed have a no-first-use policy on bio and chem weapons, at this point the gloves will come off and the Japanese forces will likely be exposed to nerve gas during the initial invasion at Iwo Jima and likely Okinawa, although because of the presence of civilian targets they might hold off on that so as not to appear like the Japanese.

The problem for Japan here is that, like many other decisions of this nature, it's very ambiguous to the Americans who ordered the strike. The Tokyo War Crimes Trial is going to be focused on that question whenever the war comes to an end, and whoever the prosecuting attorney for the Allies is will have his work cut out for him. The emperor will likely be removed and probably put on trial in some manner. In addition, I'd assume that most of the military chiefs will either get the death penalty or at the very least will be facing life imprisonment for their involvement in ordering this strike.

I'll be really interested to see the foreign reactions to this strike. Churchill and De Gaulle will be shocked and likely paranoid that their own colonial possessions in the Pacific Theater might become targets for bio-weapons use. Stalin will probably reinforce the border garrisons in Siberia near the Manchurian border and order his own chemical weapons stocks to be rolled out in case of Japanese attack. This is going to be a really bad time to be Japanese...
How true! When the first verified accounts of Nazi mass murders at Majdanek Concentration Camp were reported after that camp was liberated, because the Russians were reporting it, only the Daily Worker carried the story and no other paper gave it credence. Ditto when the Russiand liberated Auschwitz. Allied troops had to liberate Dachau and Buchenwald for these reports to be believable.
As we have seen, the question of whether the US used sarin against deserters in Vietnam (Operation Tailhook) is still one on which we on this list disagree about. Some of us think ti's a hoax. Some of us think it's true.
Even contemporary accounts of the use of nerve agents in Syria are the subject of doubt as to whether they are actual nerve agents, organophosphate insecticides or souped up tear gas and if so, whether they were used by the Assad Regime or the Syrian rebels.
 

katchen

Banned
I dare say Truman would not give a damn about that. He'd let people starve. Not sure about FDR. Of course, this plays into Soviet hands, and we could expect that whatever Japanese population survives(if Soviets send grain shipments to act humanitarian) will be willful Stalinists. They are a nation that doesn't forget favors or wrong deeds done to it.
If Roosevelt dies before 1944 ITTL, Truman is butterflied into remaining a Missouri Senator. Henry Wallace is President. And that Secretary of Agriculture won't let anybody starve.
 
If Roosevelt dies before 1944 ITTL, Truman is butterflied into remaining a Missouri Senator. Henry Wallace is President. And that Secretary of Agriculture won't let anybody starve.


ITTL it's November 1944. Election is over. FDR is still alive. Wallace is still VP and Truman is VP-elect.
 
Do you remember Wilson picking up one of those fragments and getting on the train at Union Station. Union Station isn't far from Little Tokyo. Or the barrio of East Los Angeles (though Boyle Heights is still part Jewish. Or South Central--LA's original segregated ghetto. I'd be very surprised if one of the releases WASN"T over South Central. Then again, pinpoint accuracy at night isn't easy. There'll be major repercussions if one of those bombs fell near or on a film studio, too. :eek:

Believe the Japanese just wanted to hit LA, period. They did.
 
I dare say Truman would not give a damn about that. He'd let people starve. Not sure about FDR. Of course, this plays into Soviet hands, and we could expect that whatever Japanese population survives(if Soviets send grain shipments to act humanitarian) will be willful Stalinists. They are a nation that doesn't forget favors or wrong deeds done to it.

Disagree. ITTL he allowed food to be provided to the Germans after the war, and this with knowledge of the Holocaust. No, we'll provide a level of subsistence to needy Japanese, but for our reasons, not just out of charity. Also saves our troops having to put down food riots. Hungry people will fight to feed their children, if nothing else. We can feed the needy while still owning the country.
 
Top
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top