Hm I thought something was missing.
Well this means it'll be used somewhere else, somewhere soon, then.
How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms
- Thread starter Geon
- Start date
- Status
Well this means it'll be used somewhere else, somewhere soon, then.
ok i surrender, so the use of Atomic bomb is for the Fourth Reich..
Speculation
in this TL will not Korea War like OLT so far i understand ENTIRE Korea is in Communist influence zone
and Stalin make sure Mao Zedong make no foolish idea, to conquer south China under the the Chinese Nationalists of Kuomintang.
on Vietnam there is a realistic chance the Vietnam war never happen.
because communist North Vietnam is consider by anticommunist Nationalists China as a renegade province and invade it,
France will be happy if Nationalists China joins the fight, until they realize they lost there colony..
but last word on that has Geon !
My bet, when China acts as the Korea/Vietnam expy.
Speculation
in this TL will not Korea War like OLT so far i understand ENTIRE Korea is in Communist influence zone
and Stalin make sure Mao Zedong make no foolish idea, to conquer south China under the the Chinese Nationalists of Kuomintang.
on Vietnam there is a realistic chance the Vietnam war never happen.
because communist North Vietnam is consider by anticommunist Nationalists China as a renegade province and invade it,
France will be happy if Nationalists China joins the fight, until they realize they lost there colony..
but last word on that has Geon !
Come round 3, that may happen.
ETA: Japan is going to have one hell of a stab-in-the-back mentality, and Germany will have die-hard nazis plaguing the country for decades to come. On top of that, there's no nuclear taboo, and the US and USSR may actually go to war without nuclear deterrent.
Actually I think they may go the other way. Instead you have an ingrained peace mentality and inate distrust of the Military. The view will be that After all, it was the military adventurism that caused the problems in China, Military adventurism that caused the subjugation of Korea, Military adventurism that launched the war against the Americans, launched the nightmare weapons against America that caused the revenge attacks by the Americans. The Emperor will be seen as the man who saved Japan and the Americans will back this up.
In many ways, what is left of Germany may well feel the same way.
I would be surprised if Germany is not partitioned, and I'd still suggest that it is broken down to it's pre unification states with no allowed route to reunification bar a shared currency under threat of war.
Otis R. Needleman
Banned
Yup, mighty good.
This and the ABLE ARCHER thread are serious contenders for Turtledove Awards.
Otis
This and the ABLE ARCHER thread are serious contenders for Turtledove Awards.
Otis
katchen
Banned
If Stalin can't control Tito, how is he going to control Mao Zedong?
Stalin has problems of his own postwar. Like securing Ukraine from the Banderists, which took him several years OTL. And securing Eastern Europe as satellite nations. Stalin will be able to secure all of Korea. In fact, the quick surrender of the Emperor may have prevented Stalin from getting south Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands, so he will have to be satisfied with all of Korea and Manchuria and maybe a Greater People's Republic of Mongolia extending almost to Beijing and either an independent Uighur People's Republic and Tibetan People's Republic or annexed Sinkiang and Tibet. Stalin can gain a lot from China, but force Mao to leave the KMT in control of half of China? Nyet!
There was something called the Vietnamese KMT, the Chinese could support it.
Also Korea became all American, not Soviet at all.
Or he could simply kill Mao and replace him with some other CCP leader like Lin Biao or something. After all he occupies Manchuria so this can be arranged relatively simply.If Stalin can't control Tito, how is he going to control Mao Zedong?
If Stalin can't control Tito, how is he going to control Mao Zedong?
Stalin has problems of his own postwar. Like securing Ukraine from the Banderists, which took him several years OTL. And securing Eastern Europe as satellite nations. Stalin will be able to secure all of Korea. In fact, the quick surrender of the Emperor may have prevented Stalin from getting south Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands, so he will have to be satisfied with all of Korea and Manchuria and maybe a Greater People's Republic of Mongolia extending almost to Beijing and either an independent Uighur People's Republic and Tibetan People's Republic or annexed Sinkiang and Tibet. Stalin can gain a lot from China, but force Mao to leave the KMT in control of half of China? Nyet!
I thought the US took over Korea, not Russia. Russia got all of Manchuria and Mongolia
If Stalin can't control Tito, how is he going to control Mao Zedong?
Stalin has problems of his own postwar. Like securing Ukraine from the Banderists, which took him several years OTL. And securing Eastern Europe as satellite nations. Stalin will be able to secure all of Korea. In fact, the quick surrender of the Emperor may have prevented Stalin from getting south Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands, so he will have to be satisfied with all of Korea and Manchuria and maybe a Greater People's Republic of Mongolia extending almost to Beijing and either an independent Uighur People's Republic and Tibetan People's Republic or annexed Sinkiang and Tibet. Stalin can gain a lot from China, but force Mao to leave the KMT in control of half of China? Nyet!
you gave the answer you self, katchen!
Stalin securing his satellite nations, that's not only Eastern Europe is include also Korea and Manchuria !
that mean Mao could is if he Handel unwise, have same fate like the other Eastern European leader under Stalin !
same goes for Kim Il-sung in Korea...
This was an outstanding TL, and I'm glad I discovered it long enough ago that I could follow the developments like a serialized novel or film.
While we don't yet know what will happen to Germany (or Japan) in the postwar world, I am extremely thankful that Geon never went for the sensationalist speculations of so many readers that surely, surely, Japan and Germany would be depopulated and dismembered by the allies because of their use of biological and chemical weapons, forgetting the fact that relatively few people actually died in comparison to both what the allies did or in comparison with the uncountable atrocities these two Axis powers already committed.
No, Geon very realistically presumed that the US, UK, and even USSR, would respond proportionately to the use of these weapons - certainly making WW2 bloodier and worse - but not engage in revenge-filled murder lust much worse that they actually did.
However, this will probably open the door to routine use of chemical and biological weapons in subsequent wars.
Since Geon did hint along the way that the US might deploy atomics shortly aftre their development, I wonder where this might occur. Certainly not against Japan, so perhaps Hitler's fantasy that Nazi resistance cells would mount a serious resistance to Allied occupation will come to happen in this TL, requiring the US to resort to something really spectcular in response. Who knows? That is one of the really great thing about Geon's TL - the red herrings and false leads that kept us all really unsure what would come next.
While I may have misread some things, it seems to me that this TL sets up a TL with far fewer likely cold war flashpoints. The Wallies and the USSR seem to have arranged a postwar world that has better defined spheres of interest for the powers - except Germany - whose future is entirely dependent on how the Allies react if the occupation zones see significant Nazi resistance. My own guess is that Hitler will have wasted a lot of lives and money on his Phoenix vault. Nazi resistance will be limited and the vast majority of Germans will just want to get back to their lives, and Germany will be treated in a manner not unlike what happened OTL. But in the interest of more interesting and bloody updates, I rather hope I am wrong
While we don't yet know what will happen to Germany (or Japan) in the postwar world, I am extremely thankful that Geon never went for the sensationalist speculations of so many readers that surely, surely, Japan and Germany would be depopulated and dismembered by the allies because of their use of biological and chemical weapons, forgetting the fact that relatively few people actually died in comparison to both what the allies did or in comparison with the uncountable atrocities these two Axis powers already committed.
No, Geon very realistically presumed that the US, UK, and even USSR, would respond proportionately to the use of these weapons - certainly making WW2 bloodier and worse - but not engage in revenge-filled murder lust much worse that they actually did.
However, this will probably open the door to routine use of chemical and biological weapons in subsequent wars.
Since Geon did hint along the way that the US might deploy atomics shortly aftre their development, I wonder where this might occur. Certainly not against Japan, so perhaps Hitler's fantasy that Nazi resistance cells would mount a serious resistance to Allied occupation will come to happen in this TL, requiring the US to resort to something really spectcular in response. Who knows? That is one of the really great thing about Geon's TL - the red herrings and false leads that kept us all really unsure what would come next.
While I may have misread some things, it seems to me that this TL sets up a TL with far fewer likely cold war flashpoints. The Wallies and the USSR seem to have arranged a postwar world that has better defined spheres of interest for the powers - except Germany - whose future is entirely dependent on how the Allies react if the occupation zones see significant Nazi resistance. My own guess is that Hitler will have wasted a lot of lives and money on his Phoenix vault. Nazi resistance will be limited and the vast majority of Germans will just want to get back to their lives, and Germany will be treated in a manner not unlike what happened OTL. But in the interest of more interesting and bloody updates, I rather hope I am wrong
Geon
Donor
Epilogue: Japan
I am afraid the Epilogue is going to be a tad bit longer then an epilogue should be! But we have a lot of ground to cover. I will be going slow so don't say farewell to this TL just yet, and I am also going to be planting seeds others may wish to use to develop TLs from this. First since they started the ball rolling we will deal with an overview of Japan's history following the war. Note again that if you see an asterisk by a name unless there is footnote this is a fictional name.
Again, thank you all for coming along with me on this ride.
Geon
ASIA:
Japan:
General Douglas MacArthur was named the military governor of Japan following her surrender in March. His first, and most controversial act, was to declare that the Emperor would not stand trial for any war crimes. This did not sit well with many in the United States and elsewhere who felt the Emperor bore a great deal of the blame for complicity in many of the atrocities from the Nanking massacre to the perversions of Unit 731. However MacArthur had received secret orders from President Truman that the Emperor was not to be held accountable for Japanese war crimes. In effect the President had granted Hirohito a pardon for his actions in helping the war come to its end.
Not so fortunate would be people like General Homma and other generals of the Japanese General Staff who had been army commanders. In addition several of those who worked at Unit 731 and at related units as well as commanders of POW camps and many officers both commissioned and non-commissioned would find themselves before the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal. This Tribunal, made up of jurors from the United States, the Soviet Union, Britain, and China [the representative from China was agreed upon by both the Communist and Republican sides] would sit from August of 1945 through January of 1948. For three solid years the Tribunal would mete out justice. The American public as well as the people of the other Allied nations would not settle for anything less, particularly in the American case after the nightmare that had been Operation Silent Cherry Blossom.
During the next three years over 1,200 men would be tried and executed for their crimes against humanity, another 3,445 would receive sentence ranging from life imprisonment to sentences of 35 to 50 years, and many of these sentences would include hard labor. While some future historians on both sides of the Pacific would claim “victor’s justice,” the survivors of the POW camps, the so-called “comfort women,” the surviving victims of experiments by Unit 731, those who had lived through Operation Silent Cherry Blossom, and numerous other survivors of Japanese atrocities would applaud the verdicts as “real,” justice.
As part of Japan’s surrender all of her armed forces had to disarm and all surviving naval and air assets were turned over to the Allies. Among the surviving ships the Allies received were the IJN Battleship Yamato. There had been plans to send the Yamato on a suicide run to either Iwo Jima or Okinawa where it would be run aground to be used as a gun platform. There was some debate as to what to do with this the largest of all battleships. Finally, it was decided that the IJN Yamato would be sailed to, irony of ironies, Pearl Harbor where it would be put on display as a war prize.
Japan ended up losing the Sakhalin Islands to the Soviets as part of the peace deals. In addition Iwo Jima and Okinawa became U.S. protectorates for the next three decades. The U.S. would set up air and naval bases on both islands. In 1975 Okinawa was returned to the Japanese with the proviso that the U.S. would be able to continue to rent air and naval bases on the island for the next century.
Under U.S. supervision a new constitution was drafted for Japan which severely limited Japanese armed forces and made Japan a truly constitutional monarchy. Nevertheless in response to greater and greater threats from the Manchu People’s Republic (formerly Manchukuo or Manchuria) and growing concern that the Soviets were planning to build a naval base in the Sakhalin Islands in 1978 (the Sakhalin Crisis), the Japanese were able to loosen some of the restrictions in their constitution regarding the military.
Economically Japan would take two decades to fully recover from the devastation of the war. Even now, unfortunately, in 2013 there are still reports of unexploded ordinance both conventional and chemical being found in almost all of the major cities. By 1960 Japan’s gross national product was slowly approaching its prewar level. The “electronics explosion,” of the 70s and 80 would propel the Japanese to the level of economic superpower, a position they still hold to this day.
In foreign affairs Japan has once more come to be thought of as a major player on the world stage. In the 1950’s relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea were initially cold and unfriendly likewise relations with the Greater Republic of China were also strained. Both of these nations remembered all too well what had been done to them in World War II under Japanese occupation. However, things began to change during the Manchu/Chinese incursion of 1981. The Chinese government voted to allow Japanese naval vessels to aid in quarantine of Manchu ports to prevent Soviet and other Warsaw Pact vessels from docking and delivering supplies. This was the beginning of a slow but sure improvement in relations between China, Korea, and Japan.
In addition during the first Gulf War Japan would also send naval units to ensure the Straits of Hormuz remained open. They would also contribute an anti-pirate naval force that would aid in keeping the peace of the sea lanes when Somali pirates tried to attack freighters off the East African coast.
In 1995 the Japanese became the third nation to put a man into outer space as a Japanese air force major, Saburo Watanabe* became the first Japanese citizen to be launched into orbit for three orbits and returned to Earth. In 2008 the Japanese launched a three man orbital mission which docked with the International Space Station and there are plans for Japan to launch a manned lunar mission in 2015.*
The role of Japanese Emperor Hirohito remains controversial in Japan to this day. Secret papers released prematurely in 1996, seven years after his death (they were meant to be released after 30 years had passed but an enterprising palace employee sold them for a great deal of money in the great Tokyo Palace Scandal) tell of Hirohito’s “peace conspiracy,” and his part in the deaths of the War Cabinet. Many “revisionists,” today call Hirohito a traitor because his actions resulted in the deaths of over 500,000 Japanese in the Great Tokyo Fire Raids. However, many, even among the older generation still hold up Hirohito as a symbol of peace. One Tokyo citizen said of the Emperor, “He caused many deaths, but I have no doubt had he not acted as he did many more would have died including me and my family. I can only thank him for my life and pray for the lives that were lost.” Most historians today look at Hirohito and see a man caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place, a man who wanted the best interests of his country caught between a militarist group of irresponsible madmen and a powerful enemy determined to use whatever means to win. It will be for future generations to continue this debate. Many historians point out however that it is because of Hirohito that there will be future generations to debate it.
* The U-2520 did arrive in Japan having eluded the Allies three months after the war, only to discover the war had ended and its mission was now useless. The ship and its contents were seized but Japan would still benefit as some of the information on turbojet engines and even rocket engines proved valuable later as Japan developed its own fighters and space rockets.
I am afraid the Epilogue is going to be a tad bit longer then an epilogue should be
! But we have a lot of ground to cover. I will be going slow so don't say farewell to this TL just yet, and I am also going to be planting seeds others may wish to use to develop TLs from this. First since they started the ball rolling we will deal with an overview of Japan's history following the war. Note again that if you see an asterisk by a name unless there is footnote this is a fictional name.Again, thank you all for coming along with me on this ride.
Geon
EPILOGUE:
ASIA:
Japan:
General Douglas MacArthur was named the military governor of Japan following her surrender in March. His first, and most controversial act, was to declare that the Emperor would not stand trial for any war crimes. This did not sit well with many in the United States and elsewhere who felt the Emperor bore a great deal of the blame for complicity in many of the atrocities from the Nanking massacre to the perversions of Unit 731. However MacArthur had received secret orders from President Truman that the Emperor was not to be held accountable for Japanese war crimes. In effect the President had granted Hirohito a pardon for his actions in helping the war come to its end.
Not so fortunate would be people like General Homma and other generals of the Japanese General Staff who had been army commanders. In addition several of those who worked at Unit 731 and at related units as well as commanders of POW camps and many officers both commissioned and non-commissioned would find themselves before the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal. This Tribunal, made up of jurors from the United States, the Soviet Union, Britain, and China [the representative from China was agreed upon by both the Communist and Republican sides] would sit from August of 1945 through January of 1948. For three solid years the Tribunal would mete out justice. The American public as well as the people of the other Allied nations would not settle for anything less, particularly in the American case after the nightmare that had been Operation Silent Cherry Blossom.
During the next three years over 1,200 men would be tried and executed for their crimes against humanity, another 3,445 would receive sentence ranging from life imprisonment to sentences of 35 to 50 years, and many of these sentences would include hard labor. While some future historians on both sides of the Pacific would claim “victor’s justice,” the survivors of the POW camps, the so-called “comfort women,” the surviving victims of experiments by Unit 731, those who had lived through Operation Silent Cherry Blossom, and numerous other survivors of Japanese atrocities would applaud the verdicts as “real,” justice.
As part of Japan’s surrender all of her armed forces had to disarm and all surviving naval and air assets were turned over to the Allies. Among the surviving ships the Allies received were the IJN Battleship Yamato. There had been plans to send the Yamato on a suicide run to either Iwo Jima or Okinawa where it would be run aground to be used as a gun platform. There was some debate as to what to do with this the largest of all battleships. Finally, it was decided that the IJN Yamato would be sailed to, irony of ironies, Pearl Harbor where it would be put on display as a war prize.
Japan ended up losing the Sakhalin Islands to the Soviets as part of the peace deals. In addition Iwo Jima and Okinawa became U.S. protectorates for the next three decades. The U.S. would set up air and naval bases on both islands. In 1975 Okinawa was returned to the Japanese with the proviso that the U.S. would be able to continue to rent air and naval bases on the island for the next century.
Under U.S. supervision a new constitution was drafted for Japan which severely limited Japanese armed forces and made Japan a truly constitutional monarchy. Nevertheless in response to greater and greater threats from the Manchu People’s Republic (formerly Manchukuo or Manchuria) and growing concern that the Soviets were planning to build a naval base in the Sakhalin Islands in 1978 (the Sakhalin Crisis), the Japanese were able to loosen some of the restrictions in their constitution regarding the military.
Economically Japan would take two decades to fully recover from the devastation of the war. Even now, unfortunately, in 2013 there are still reports of unexploded ordinance both conventional and chemical being found in almost all of the major cities. By 1960 Japan’s gross national product was slowly approaching its prewar level. The “electronics explosion,” of the 70s and 80 would propel the Japanese to the level of economic superpower, a position they still hold to this day.
In foreign affairs Japan has once more come to be thought of as a major player on the world stage. In the 1950’s relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea were initially cold and unfriendly likewise relations with the Greater Republic of China were also strained. Both of these nations remembered all too well what had been done to them in World War II under Japanese occupation. However, things began to change during the Manchu/Chinese incursion of 1981. The Chinese government voted to allow Japanese naval vessels to aid in quarantine of Manchu ports to prevent Soviet and other Warsaw Pact vessels from docking and delivering supplies. This was the beginning of a slow but sure improvement in relations between China, Korea, and Japan.
In addition during the first Gulf War Japan would also send naval units to ensure the Straits of Hormuz remained open. They would also contribute an anti-pirate naval force that would aid in keeping the peace of the sea lanes when Somali pirates tried to attack freighters off the East African coast.
In 1995 the Japanese became the third nation to put a man into outer space as a Japanese air force major, Saburo Watanabe* became the first Japanese citizen to be launched into orbit for three orbits and returned to Earth. In 2008 the Japanese launched a three man orbital mission which docked with the International Space Station and there are plans for Japan to launch a manned lunar mission in 2015.*
The role of Japanese Emperor Hirohito remains controversial in Japan to this day. Secret papers released prematurely in 1996, seven years after his death (they were meant to be released after 30 years had passed but an enterprising palace employee sold them for a great deal of money in the great Tokyo Palace Scandal) tell of Hirohito’s “peace conspiracy,” and his part in the deaths of the War Cabinet. Many “revisionists,” today call Hirohito a traitor because his actions resulted in the deaths of over 500,000 Japanese in the Great Tokyo Fire Raids. However, many, even among the older generation still hold up Hirohito as a symbol of peace. One Tokyo citizen said of the Emperor, “He caused many deaths, but I have no doubt had he not acted as he did many more would have died including me and my family. I can only thank him for my life and pray for the lives that were lost.” Most historians today look at Hirohito and see a man caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place, a man who wanted the best interests of his country caught between a militarist group of irresponsible madmen and a powerful enemy determined to use whatever means to win. It will be for future generations to continue this debate. Many historians point out however that it is because of Hirohito that there will be future generations to debate it.
* The U-2520 did arrive in Japan having eluded the Allies three months after the war, only to discover the war had ended and its mission was now useless. The ship and its contents were seized but Japan would still benefit as some of the information on turbojet engines and even rocket engines proved valuable later as Japan developed its own fighters and space rockets.
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Well, the Japanese appear to have weathered the storm. What I'd like to see is how long it took the West to clean up the mess in Germany. (Personally, I suspect that we'd get the partition plan Sumner Welles had in mind: Hanover/Prussia/Bavaria.)
cubefreak123
Banned
Very nice epilogue for Japan. The butterflies from the unified Korea and Greater Republic of China are pretty big too. China would be more open to the rest of the world and could become a big player on the world stage sooner than OTL. Some people have also speculated on Vietnam happening or not. Honestly, without a stronger communist presence in the region SE Asia may be a bit more muted to the idea of communism.
Of course that could drive the USSR to push for influence in other areas of the world that much harder.
Of course that could drive the USSR to push for influence in other areas of the world that much harder.
Given the Tribunal that lead to the execution of over 1,200 Japanese convicted of war crimes in this timeline, here's one thing I want to add: the people executed were strictly prohibited from being memorialized at the Yasukuni Shrine, per General MacArthur's orders--an edict that lasts to this day.
I would also modify the timeline so the city of Kyoto was never seriously bombed, just like in the OTL--Henry L. Stimson (FDR's Secretary of War) in this timeline still visited Kyoto in the early 1920's, and as such appreciated the deep historical significance of this city.
I would also modify the timeline so the city of Kyoto was never seriously bombed, just like in the OTL--Henry L. Stimson (FDR's Secretary of War) in this timeline still visited Kyoto in the early 1920's, and as such appreciated the deep historical significance of this city.
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