How Serious Would The Lose of Moscow Have Been to the USSR in 1941?

How Serious Would The Lose of Moscow Have Been to the USSR in 1941?

  • Extremely Serious. Possible War-Winner for Hitler

    Votes: 48 16.1%
  • Serious. USSR's Ability to Continue War Several Curtailed

    Votes: 134 44.8%
  • Significant. A Major Setback But Not a Crushing Blow to Soviet Efforts

    Votes: 106 35.5%
  • Not Very Important. Troubling But Not a Game-Changer.

    Votes: 8 2.7%
  • Unimportant. Really Doesn't Change Anything.

    Votes: 3 1.0%

  • Total voters
    299
Would a Red Army at 90% (in the period July-December) do the job? A Red Army at 75%? A Red Army at 50%?

Not necessarily, in preparation to Barbarossa, the Germans requisitioned every truck available in western Europe including the organic transport of the infantry divisions and organized them as transport columns for mechanized units. Naturally the spare parts and maintenance of the 100+ different types if trucks was complete nightmare. Also they were able to provide each truck with just one set of tyres every year. (van Creveld again)

IIRC, by october they had lost 40% of the trucks which they could not possibly replace. No trucks means no fuel & ammo for tanks and no transport for motorized infantry. So encircling Moscow was a pipe dream.

Also Germans cannot inflict more casualties for Red Army, they destroyed everything Red Army had between start line and Moscow between June and July and everything Soviets could throw against them July-October.
 
Also Germans cannot inflict more casualties for Red Army, they destroyed everything Red Army had between start line and Moscow between June and July

Not in the south. The Southwestern Front was able to retreat from the frontier and wasn't encircled and destroyed until the Kiev encirclement in September.
 
Not to mention Southern Front which only suffered about 2% casualties in the first two weeks of the invasion.
South Western and Southern Fronts ability to survive the initial phase in a reasonable shape enabled the Soviets to send virtually all (external) reinforcements to the north of the Pripyat in the June/July period.
Which was a key success criteria in them halting the Germans at the end of July.

Going back to my argument as to why a weakened Red Army would lead to a better logistical situation for the Germans - it rests on a few points.

(1) the weaker the Red Army becomes, the fewer counterattacks will they be able to launch (*)
* while a say 10% weakening might not seem like a lot at first glance, it becomes pretty high if one compares it to the size of the operational reserve (the latter being more useful if one is to determine ones ability to launch an offensive operations)

A corrolary to this would be that there would be less fighting in between the German primary attacks.

If we use a pretty basic formula with regards to supply: Input - Output = Change in stockpiled supply

--> less fighting (**) would lead to less output --> which would lead to an increase in stockpiled supply
** given that the Germans to a large extent relied upon firepower (with an associated heavy ammunition usage) to defeat the Soviet attacks, this might become significant

I briefly mentioned the 87th ID in my last post, which also provides a good example of this. In response to the Soviet counterattack north of Smolensk in mid-August (after the bulk of PzGr3 had been commited elsewhere), the Germans hastily arranged for the division to be transported to Smolensk to help block the attack. Now, moving troops by rail uses a lot of transport capacity, in this case the division was moved by 40 trains. Knowing that a standard supply train carried about 450 tons, thats 18 000 tons (which is a lot) of transport capcaity used the wrong way (if you're in charge of supplies at least...).

(2) a big problem for the Germans was the fact that the railroad troops needed a lot of supplies to operate and repair the railroads. A lot of these supplies had to be moved by rail (roughly 10% of the total capcaity was used in this regard iirc), and were thus in direct competition with the supply needs of the armed forces. A reduction in the supply needs of the latter might very well increase the railroad troops share of the transport capacity. Leading to an increase in the Input variable in the formula above.

(3) the large scale movement of troops north and south from AG Center in mid-August used a lot of supplies and caused supply difficulties (Creveld). Depending on how things turn out in ATL, such movements might not be necessary.


Moving on from the logistics side, the other key problem the Germans had at the end of the campaign were the lack of troops in the combat units (which obviously suffers the bulk of the casualties).
Available reinforcements had been (more or less) spent by October, and so the combat power of the divisions dropped from day to day.
With (once again) say 10% fewer Soviets shooting at the Germans, they would probably suffer fewer combat casualties as a result (maybe 10% fewer...). That would go some way towards sustaining the combat power of the divisions for a bit longer.
 
I think that the Germans could have encircled Moscow during Operation Typhoon. Maybe with something like this.

1. Rokossovsky is unable to escape the Vyazma pocket and kills himself, Konev is shot for the disaster at Vyazma.

2. 2nd Panzer's kampfgruppe eberbach is either not ambushed by the 4th Tank Brigade on October 8th due to air reconnaissance, and defeats them in battle, or they are sent elsewhere.

3. one of Guderian's tank corps is not diverted to Bryansk. They are instead sent to assist in the assault on Tula due to 4th panzer divsion having a lack of fuel. the 2nd Army is not assigned with attacking Kursk after finishing the Bryansk pockets (this would later clog Guderian's supply lines making his fuel shortages much worse). 3rd Panzer army is not diverted to Kalinin, but is still to attack towards Rzhev and Stepino.

4. Das Reich is not ambushed at Borodino. Soviets had hidden tanks in barns at strategic positions, and destroyed most of the division in this battle. 10th Panzer division and heavy artillery is brought up behind them as in OTL.

5. A few days after Mtensk, around October 10 or 11, kampfgruppe Eberbach, now reinforced reaches Tula, defended by the 69th NKVD Brigade. The city is taken from the unprepared defenders. (OTL this attack was not until October 29 due to being stopped at Mtensk, and the city was filled with anti tank guns). After capturing the city the group stops due to lack of fuel.

6. Kluge does not make the decision to assume a defensive position in mid-October. (he was completely capable of continuing his attack towards Naro-Forminsk and Serphukov, but made the (correct in hindsight) decision to take a defensive position.) Because of this 4th Army captures Naro-Forminsk and Serpukhov, and Volokolamsk.

7. From Stepino, 3rd Panzer makes it to Klin before Typhoon is called off on the 31st. 4th Panzer advances from Volokolamsk to Istria and Solnechnogorsk in this time as well.

8. with Tula captured, 2nd Army is moved forward in late October to secure 2nd Panzer's flank. 9th Army secures 3rd and 4th Panzers' flank.

9. Offensive resumes when the roads frost on 15th of November as in OTL. 3rd Pazner captures Yukhnov and Dimitrov after routing the 16th Army as in OTL. 4th Panzer advances to Krasnaya-Polyana. Zukhov asks for more reserves but STAVKA is reluctant to give them as per OTL. 4th Army assaults Podolsk. Zhukov is later unable to convince them until it is too late, meaning that the 1st Shock Army is not available to halt 3rd Panzer Group's advance past the Moscow-Volga canal.

10. Guderian advances on Kashira with all 3 of his Panzer Corps, as his attack is not diluted due to the capture of Tula. 4th Panzer advances to Zelenograd, Lobnya, and Khimki. 4th Army has broken through Moscows first outer defensive line. (there were 3).

11. 2nd Panzer attacks the Moscow River northwest of Kolomna as per the plan of Typhoon. Here he runs into part of Moscow's 3rd defensive belt, but it is lightly manned and broken through after a few days. He moves toward Noginsk, where 2nd and 3rd Panzer Groups will meet.

12. Panzers meet in Noginsk, encircling Moscow, probably around December 1st. Elements of 9th Army would probably be moved forward later to protect the flank. The Germans still have to assault the city itself, (which had some pretty good defenses in place), but the Red Army inside the city are cut off.

Not saying they could 100% hold off a winter counter-attack, what with their huge flanks. Stockpiled winter uniforms and Antifreeze could probably be supplied to AGC, atleast for a short time, since a lot of its units would be considered done fighting and not require as much supply.
 
Finbarr the Fair said:
I'm not sure the oil fuel usage of the KM would actually be enough to improve fuel deliveries on the Eastern Front, but it can't hurt. The steel would probably be most useful in tank production, and could keep German tank strength up to TOE - provided the railroads can carry them to where tank transporters could move them to the Frontline. Actually, thinking on that, building locomotives that can operate on Russian gauges might be preferable IF the Germans can get them to the railheads. Or could they manage to design and build dual gauge locomotives? Certainly anything that improves German logistics is key to a better performance in Barbarossa. Maybe assign suitable KM personnel to rail repair/conversion units, am on holiday so can't consult Creveld to get their names, as these were understaffed.


I know the navy only used ten percent of the war effort, so it wasn't much, but like you said it can't hurt. I don't think the problem of tanks was an issue as much as the problem of supply. I think using the steel to build the railroads and locomotives from the KM personnel is much more helpful as you said. Germany's problem of coal was nowhere near bad it's supply of oil. So by building railroads and locomotives to the russian gauge, as the initial advance sounds MUCH better than building motor vehicles. Of course they could build some in the event they had the extra steel and oil from the KM.


No Batle of Britain (or the night bombing blitz?) is also helpful to the Luftwaffe in that it will have more pilots and aircraft available in June 1941. Perhaps this will get an even faster breakthrough by the Panzergruppes in the border battles but as the front moves forward the benefits will lessen without improvements to logistics. Though at least some planes could fly fuel to Panzer spearheads I not think this could get Panzergruppe IV to Leningrad before the city's defenses become too strong to overcome without more infantry, which simply can't get there in time.

Why would this not help Panzergruppe IV get to Leningrad? Not saying it should work or be done with little effort but what other issues did they face other than having the infantry to catch up


ISTM that all three of these moves by Germany will be obvious to Stalin and the USSR, which changes the dynamics of the pre-Barbarossa period. Stalin will be very much more suspicious of the German build up in occupied Poland when it is not actively fighting Britain in the air or threatening to starve it into submission through submarine warfare. What he can do about it is a matter of debate but at the least a better prepared Red Army can demolish bridges and hinder the Germans in many ways in the opening weeks.

Perhaps having an intense anti-British propaganda might cause Stalin to think otherwise(although it can't be known, it's my own view of the possible result), along with a deception plan, much like Operation Mincemeat, where Stalin is showcased what might be a possible invasion into Egypt. This would still involve the Balkan operation, though making this part of the plan could have called for invading the Balkans earlier than they had, which could lead them to the possible original date of May 15. This may leave him to be less suspicious of the Germans.

And of course also changes how Britain behaves. Without the Battle of Britain the RAF is also potentially stronger. Does it still bomb Germany without being bombed itself? Probably IMHO. With no fear of invasion more troops and equipment can be sent to the Middle East. The British offensive against the Italians could be earlier and maybe reach Tripoli before the Germans react? With no Battle of the Atlantic, or at least a diminishing threat, British war production won't suffer from shortages. The naval programmed would not be so disrupted by a shift to building escorts, and with no need to keep a strong Home Fleet thee will be more of a presence in both the Mediterranen and Singapore. With no need to take short northern routes and no shipping losses, the UK will not be so dependent on lend lease as it can source raw materials from the sterling zone.

Thanks for including the reaction of the British. I dislike the "snowmen" comments certain people input into the changes made by the Axis. This certainly will leave strong repercussions on the North African campaign forcing the Germans and Italians to possibly establish a defensive outside the borders of Libya, with a MUCH stronger British offensive force. Though would this not benefit the Soviets as Britain was not as industrialized to send equipment to itself and friends. Considering that there is no American LL if Britain does not seem to be danger. Might Britain be more motivated to protect it's colonies and not send as much equipment to the Soviet Union? IIRC around 15 percent of the tank force around the Battle of Moscow was British matilda tanks, along with 100 sent fighter planes. It wasn't decisive but it certainly was a noteable contribution. This and the fact that the Germans expend more steel,oil and coal into building motor vehicles, locomotives and railroads to improve their logistics might be decisive.

Thank you for replying to my comment. Much appreciated for someone to answer my hypothetical questions.
 

Deleted member 1487

One thing that might have helped had it worked was a failed Brandenburger operation to blow up a dam that was involved with Moscow's water supply during Operation Taifun. IOTL the Brandenburger team parachuted near the objective and were caught and killed by the NKVD. Have that operation work and the Soviets would have a lot of trouble if their capital's water supply suddenly disappeared.
https://books.google.com/books?id=FLpKnEjFUX0C&pg=PA116&lpg=PA116&dq=brandenburger+operation+moscow+1941&source=bl&ots=m6dXdgegOK&sig=PTjtyyFX9qwd0cRdtGama1QAtwA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilvvigysTOAhXIRiYKHUsKBeYQ6AEIPzAF#v=onepage&q=brandenburger operation moscow 1941&f=false
An attack on Istra Dam.
 
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I know this thread has drifted off for a while, but if the Germans establish a defensive line when the weather turns horrible in Oct. 1941 and focus on pocketing Soviet forces and then resume their drive in May of 1942 and focus their whole war effort on taking Moscow instead of Stalingrad?
 
I know this thread has drifted off for a while, but if the Germans establish a defensive line when the weather turns horrible in Oct. 1941 and focus on pocketing Soviet forces and then resume their drive in May of 1942 and focus their whole war effort on taking Moscow instead of Stalingrad?

Then Stalin has a huge army to face the Germans with, about 9 times the size of what was at the Stalingrad sector in July 1942. Germany's only chances were in 1941 or after gutting (as in completely smashing, to nearly ASB levels) the Red Army in '42 or '43.

- BNC
 
So I am just going with my favourite head cannon for an ATL, regarding Barbarossa, with two major POD:

1. No BoB, on the June 16th when the Fuhrer Directive 16 was given for a certain sea mammal. Our favourite junky, Air Marschall Göring was once again in dreamland. So instead more level headed generals and admirals convince Hitler to go with submarine warfare reinforced with all the long range bombers the Luftwaffe had;

a. Save a ton of experienced pilots and aircrews (somewhere in excess of 4.000 where lost)

b. Massive amount of fuel and supplies

c. A large amount of planes (OTL 1.977 planes were lost)

d. And maybe no Lend Lease, the photos of suffering by the Brits under the Blitz where a major tool in getting Lend Lease approved.

2. No coup in Yugoslavia, instead of signing just the Tripartite pact on March 25th. It is done earlier in January with some additional sweeteners for Yugoslavia.

a. 14 infantry divisions will be mobilised and serve with the German forces mostly in anti-partisan and garrison roles, armed and equipped by the Germans. But for pay equal to that of German troops, much higher than Yugoslavian pay, or even British and French pay levels. Pulling any and all of the ambitious and energetic officers who usually form the backbone of a coup. Also by the time a coup could be organised half of the army would be hostages to the Germans.

b. Two accepting a large number of Yugoslavian men say 200.000 men into the Reichsarbeitsdienst, mainly for construction of infrastructure in Poland. This should have calmed down the civilian protest in Belgrade quite a bit.

Leading to an improvement for the forces for Barbarossa by;

1. Some 2500 planes as losses did not have to be replaced and spare parts usage would have been much less without BoB and the April Campaign.

2. 14 Divisions of German infantry not needed for rear area duty.

3. The supplies wasted on Yugoslavia would have been earmarked for use in Barbarossa and added to the staging supply dumbs.

4. Better infrastructure in Poland.

5. A 200.000 men ready and trained in improving logistical infrastructure.

6. Starting the campaign in April not June, gives longer until the mud season and winter.

7. There also would have been only a handful of T-34’s and KV-1’s in service at the beginning. Remember production of the T-34’s only started in September 40, and that with the inferior T-34-40. So by April only and I guestimating here only maybe 300 T-34-40’s, 200 KV-1-39’s and 100 KV-2’s would have been in regimental service.

Taking this as a starting point the fall of Moscow would no longer be ASB.

Then the effect of Moscow in German hands would in fact be quite catastrophic. Let me list the ways in which it would be a real disaster:

1. Logistics

a. The railways though Moscow

b. The train stockyards, coaling sites, stations and repair facilities in and around Moscow

c. Coordination of transport

d. Volga and Oka rivers as far downstream as Nizhny Novgorod would be interdicted by LW stationed around Moscow, and the same for railway traffic in the area.

I think that would have fouled up the transport any reinforcements coming from Siberia probably forcing to detrain at basically at the crossing of the Volga.

2. Organization

a. STAVKA, Red Airforce, MD Moscow and the Moscow Front all had their headquarters in Moscow. Retreating from Moscow would have caused massive disruptions in the chain of command. Above that already in place because of enemy action.

b. All industrial control and planning was done from Moscow, these where civilians, any retreat would have caused months of disruptions throughout the production chain. You know the whole for a want of a nail.

c. NKVD was run purely from Moscow, while most personnel would make it out their vast files would not. Can you imagine the Gestapo getting their hands on that archive. And without some serious prep time the archive would have been mostly intact for capture.

d. The Polit bureau would relocate to the east but how much of their surrounding bureaucracy would they manage to take with them.

So while fleeing several hundred kilometres it would be somewhat hard to organize effective resistance never mind a counter attack.

3. Industrial

a. Disruptions as mentioned above

b. Leningrad contained roughly 9% of 1940 USSR production, one can therefore assume that Moscow was well into the double digits.

c. Moscow was the only place where electronics where produced. So say goodbye to any new radio’s or ignitions for tanks and planes.

d. Most of the other ‘high tech’ industries where also centred in Moscow. Thinks like optics, tool making, and precision machinery.

Losing such capacity and top level labour would be devastating to USSR production literally setting them back buy as much as 20 years.

4. Propaganda

a. Goebbels would still be droning on about it to this day. (and yes I know he would be 119 by now)

b. The diplomatic core would have to evacuate as well, don’t know how many foreign governments would approve that. Then to have diplomatic reports pouring in about the chaos and disaster of the relocations would destroy Soviet reputation.

c. The perception abroad that the Soviets where done for would have been overwhelming. Most likely ending Lend Lease by the UK and USA to the USSR. Buying on credit already difficult for the Soviets from neutral parties would completely dry up. Sales conditions would likely change to only prepaid purchases.

d. The morale among Soviet civilians would also take a nose dive. Recruitment of things like Cossacks and other non-Russian rebels by the Germans would take near flood like proportions.

e. The morale in the Red Army, Navy, Airforce, and even the NKVD would also crater. Desertions would take epic proportions, failure to report for induction into the armed forces would become systemic. Even warlordism would rear its ugly head why obey a STAVKA that lost freaking Moscow.

And this is not even counting the tactical effect of a German army siting in Moscow.
 

Deleted member 1487

No Kalinin diversion during October 1941 might have been enough, as having two panzer armies moving on Moscow would likely have overloaded Soviet defenses.
 
So odds are if America still enters the war and Germany is defeated, Russia would be in no position to challenge the US
 

Deleted member 1487

So odds are if America still enters the war and Germany is defeated, Russia would be in no position to challenge the US
The USSR might not exist a state by the end of the war ITTL.
 
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