How powerful would Mexico have been if stable post independence

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How powerful would Mexico have been economically and military if stable post independence either as a monarchy under Iturbide/European monarchy or a Republic with no civil wars or military coups meaning the foreign debts are not as large and less damages due to civil war/military coups means less chance of a European invasion such as the French pastry war and stronger economy
 
I think Mexico could have been much more of a regional power, but it did have two major weaknesses even if we handwave away domestic political problems. 1) Central Americans did not intend to remain under Mexico's jurisdiction. 2) Large parts of Northern Mexico were not very populated by Mexicans. This made them very difficult to defend in war or even benefit from having in peace. Still, with a large population and access to both the Atlantic and Pacific, a Mexico with a better domestic situation could expect to be fairly wealthy.
 
I think in a scenario with a very stable Mexico ~1820, you'd end up with an early period where Mexico and the USA are direct competitors/rough equals geopolitically early on but skewed in America's favor pound for pound.

The USA would have several major advantages such as better geography for a unified state, better topography for agriculture, a more developed economy, a large merchant marine, high literacy rates, and nuts birth rates. Mexico would have immediate access to both the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, stronger soft power in the rest of Latin America and the Phillippines, be more appealing to a wider segment of OTL's 1800s historic immigrant populations due to being Catholic, and a slight lead in the settlement of the West due to their very light presence in California and Texas.

America's historic demographic ballooning would help them settle the Mississippi at the same rate as OTL early on, but Mexico would be far more competitive than OTL too due to their less restrictive immigration policies(just be a Catholic 4Head). The USA constantly flirted with nativism and anti-Catholic sentiment, which I imagine would be much worse in this scenario if Mexico is viewed as a competitor or even an enemy.

I'm sourcing Wikipedia here for this entire paragraph, but Irish immigration to the US started to ramp up from 1820 onwards reaching 195k in 1820, 663k by 1840, and 1.6 million by 1850. Irish immigration from 1820 to 1845 numbered ~1 million. Pretty clear that there was non-insignificant Catholic immigration going on here as a percentage of the immigrant Irish during this period. Then when you get to the Potato Famine, 90% of immigrants were Catholic, and ~1.5m-2m people left Ireland by the end of the famine.

I'm obviously imagining a scenario here, but a more stable Mexico is a more prosperous Mexico. You'll probably have greater trade between the UK and Mexico due to this as well as greater Irish immigration to Mexico long before 1846. When the potato famine comes around, narratives and trends may have shifted enough that it's now Mexico, not the USA that is the primary target for Irish immigration. Considering OTL Mexico's deal to settle Texas with Americans, with greater immigration already in place you might see an already very Irish Texas become the primary destination for Irish immigrants from the famine. Extremely Irish Texas incoming?

This was a little side speculation to highlight where there's a lot of potential variances. Looking at today's demographics, 1 in 4 German Americans today identify as Catholic, 1 in 3 Irish Americans today are Catholic. And that's before we get to the next runner-ups, English(no data on the number of English American Catholics), non-specific Americans, Italian, Polish, and French Americans all of which are going to have significant to supermajority Catholic numbers. A stable Mexico can serve as a counterweight to the USA and draw in a majority of these Catholics, especially the ones that don't come from an English-adjacent culture like the Irish, ex. Poles or Italians as well as siphon immigrants that OTL went to other countries in the Americas outside of the USA and Mexico such as Brazil, Argentina, and Colombia due to being the poster child for Catholic prosperity in the New World, control of California and its gold rush, etc. to give Mexico its own hype reel for immigration.

Stability in Mexico allows for a more organized settlement of El Norte, and I expect O'Donoju living could help play a part in broaching the Irish-Mexican immigration pipeline. Austin may still have his American colony in Texas, but he'll have to cohabitate with Mexicans, Irishmen, etc. being encouraged to settle at the same time which may blunt the settlers' aspirations in Texas to work around the Mexican government and introduce ex. slavery. A Fredonian Revolt analog would accelerate this and Mexico may actually be able to make good on blocking further American immigration to Texas or enforcing a quota as a compromise. Additional tensions could arise here since, until 1828, Mexico didn't recognize the Adams-Onis treaty and still claimed Oregon Country. This could lead to a much earlier Mexican-American War, and that's likely to play to Mexico's favor if anything as American ability to project power into the North American interior is as gimped for the USA as it is for Mexico, whose ability would be better than OTL but still absolutely terrible.

From there, who can say really? The USA and Mexico's ability to project power into Texas is limited due to how far it is from their centers of power but I'd say Mexico has a slight advantage due to their active buildup in Texas compared to the USA's more passive approach. The war could go either way there, though I'd anticipate American naval dominance in the Caribbean hampering what on paper would look like a slightly favored matchup for Mexico. But if Adams-Onis being unrecognized is still up in the air and tensions took time to build, then you've got the reverse is quite likely in the Pacific; Mexican naval dominance wrecking American presence in the region.

So the war ends up being very lackluster for both sides with the Mexicans losing Texas east of the Brazos and north of the Canadian River until it reaches the Continental Divide while gaining land in the Oregon Country; the border is defined by the Snake and Columbia River instead of the 42nd parallel, leaving all lands south to Mexico. Mexico ends up reviving the Spanish claim to the Pacific Northwest as a result, though limits itself to what it gained at American expense. Fort Astoria and Fort Vancouver being in British hands in lands claimed by the Mexicans raise eyebrows in London but Mexico manages to not fumble the entire thing and calls for a summit to settle the Oregon Country once and for all with America as the weakest party at the table. The end result is something like this:

* Mexico ends up with their borders as written in the peace between the USA and Mexico. All of Oregon, a chunk of southeast Washington, and a sliver of Idaho that's south of the Snake River are their gains
* The American claims in Oregon Country are defined by the Mexican claims to the south, and the 48th parallel up until it reaches the Columbia River, at which point it follows the river until it reaches the 49th parallel and follows the rest of the British-American border east
* The British border is all lands north of the American border(48th parallel until it reaches the Columbia River)

The USA wins in the primary theater of war, Mexico in the secondary, and a bitter rivalry is born. Mexico and the USA spend the next century competing to populate their claims in the interior of North America and for influence in the New World and the Pacific. The USA leverages its booming birth rates and the immigration of Protestants from Europe, having hardened its anti-Catholic stances after their loss of most of the Oregon Country and continued rivalry with Mexico. Mexico ends up receiving the majority of Catholic immigration that OTL went to the USA. Aside from a large number of Irish Catholics, Mexico receives many Spaniards, Italians, Catholic Germans, and Poles in this period and experiences decent demographic growth of its own due to its stability and growing economy. The USA's also likely to have stronger internal discontent than OTL; northerners blaming the southerners for the loss of most of Oregon Country for a small strip of slave land, and vice versa viewing the northern states as perfidious allies that could have done more to secure a greater victory over Mexico.

Choose your poison from here; fracture America, have the USA and Mexico keep relative parity, have one gain a late advantage over the other in ATL-World Wars, etc. Though I imagine that Mexico's probably more successful in both the New World and the Pacific than the USA when it comes to soft power due to their shared language and religion with the rest of Latin America and their existing ties with the Phillippines, while the USA whether its a rump North or not hard claps the Mexicans in industrial development.
 
How powerful would Mexico have been economically and military if stable post independence either as a monarchy under Iturbide/European monarchy or a Republic with no civil wars or military coups meaning the foreign debts are not as large and less damages due to civil war/military coups means less chance of a European invasion such as the French pastry war and stronger economy
I dont know if they could keep it but Mexico had its eyes on Cuba for a bit and was hoping to get either British or French backing to get it as seen in the passadge below which might lead to a stronger Mexico if either power takes intrest helping Mexico (possibly for Mexico offering to give them thier central amarican claims since at this point they lost it but still had claims and may chose to stretigicly sell them in the same way Genoa sold thier Corsican claims to France when they lost control of the island to rebals)
"Despite the victory of Mexico over the last Spanish bastion in Ulúa, Spain refused to recognize the Treaty of Córdoba and hence the independence of Mexico. The Mexican government, led by Guadalupe Victoria, came to the conclusion that Spain, by its refusal to recognize the treaties, still posed a threat, and could use Cuba as a platform to launch a campaign to recover Mexico. Lucas Alamán, who was then the Mexican Minister of Foreign Affairs, assessed the threat posed by the military forces stationed in Cuba to Mexico. Since 1824, Alaman had held the belief that Mexico should seize Cuba, arguing that "Cuba without Mexico is aimed at imperialist yoke; Mexico without Cuba is a prisoner of the Gulf of Mexico." He believed that the Mexican forces, with the support of foreign powers such as France or England (which had been the first European power to recognize the independence of Mexico on July 16, 1836), could overcome the Spanish in Cuba.[8]"
 
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I think in a scenario with a very stable Mexico ~1820, you'd end up with an early period where Mexico and the USA are direct competitors/rough equals geopolitically early on but skewed in America's favor pound for pound.

The USA would have several major advantages such as better geography for a unified state, better topography for agriculture, a more developed economy, a large merchant marine, high literacy rates, and nuts birth rates. Mexico would have immediate access to both the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, stronger soft power in the rest of Latin America and the Phillippines, be more appealing to a wider segment of OTL's 1800s historic immigrant populations due to being Catholic, and a slight lead in the settlement of the West due to their very light presence in California and Texas.

America's historic demographic ballooning would help them settle the Mississippi at the same rate as OTL early on, but Mexico would be far more competitive than OTL too due to their less restrictive immigration policies(just be a Catholic 4Head). The USA constantly flirted with nativism and anti-Catholic sentiment, which I imagine would be much worse in this scenario if Mexico is viewed as a competitor or even an enemy.

I'm sourcing Wikipedia here for this entire paragraph, but Irish immigration to the US started to ramp up from 1820 onwards reaching 195k in 1820, 663k by 1840, and 1.6 million by 1850. Irish immigration from 1820 to 1845 numbered ~1 million. Pretty clear that there was non-insignificant Catholic immigration going on here as a percentage of the immigrant Irish during this period. Then when you get to the Potato Famine, 90% of immigrants were Catholic, and ~1.5m-2m people left Ireland by the end of the famine.

I'm obviously imagining a scenario here, but a more stable Mexico is a more prosperous Mexico. You'll probably have greater trade between the UK and Mexico due to this as well as greater Irish immigration to Mexico long before 1846. When the potato famine comes around, narratives and trends may have shifted enough that it's now Mexico, not the USA that is the primary target for Irish immigration. Considering OTL Mexico's deal to settle Texas with Americans, with greater immigration already in place you might see an already very Irish Texas become the primary destination for Irish immigrants from the famine. Extremely Irish Texas incoming?

This was a little side speculation to highlight where there's a lot of potential variances. Looking at today's demographics, 1 in 4 German Americans today identify as Catholic, 1 in 3 Irish Americans today are Catholic. And that's before we get to the next runner-ups, English(no data on the number of English American Catholics), non-specific Americans, Italian, Polish, and French Americans all of which are going to have significant to supermajority Catholic numbers. A stable Mexico can serve as a counterweight to the USA and draw in a majority of these Catholics, especially the ones that don't come from an English-adjacent culture like the Irish, ex. Poles or Italians as well as siphon immigrants that OTL went to other countries in the Americas outside of the USA and Mexico such as Brazil, Argentina, and Colombia due to being the poster child for Catholic prosperity in the New World, control of California and its gold rush, etc. to give Mexico its own hype reel for immigration.

Stability in Mexico allows for a more organized settlement of El Norte, and I expect O'Donoju living could help play a part in broaching the Irish-Mexican immigration pipeline. Austin may still have his American colony in Texas, but he'll have to cohabitate with Mexicans, Irishmen, etc. being encouraged to settle at the same time which may blunt the settlers' aspirations in Texas to work around the Mexican government and introduce ex. slavery. A Fredonian Revolt analog would accelerate this and Mexico may actually be able to make good on blocking further American immigration to Texas or enforcing a quota as a compromise. Additional tensions could arise here since, until 1828, Mexico didn't recognize the Adams-Onis treaty and still claimed Oregon Country. This could lead to a much earlier Mexican-American War, and that's likely to play to Mexico's favor if anything as American ability to project power into the North American interior is as gimped for the USA as it is for Mexico, whose ability would be better than OTL but still absolutely terrible.

From there, who can say really? The USA and Mexico's ability to project power into Texas is limited due to how far it is from their centers of power but I'd say Mexico has a slight advantage due to their active buildup in Texas compared to the USA's more passive approach. The war could go either way there, though I'd anticipate American naval dominance in the Caribbean hampering what on paper would look like a slightly favored matchup for Mexico. But if Adams-Onis being unrecognized is still up in the air and tensions took time to build, then you've got the reverse is quite likely in the Pacific; Mexican naval dominance wrecking American presence in the region.

So the war ends up being very lackluster for both sides with the Mexicans losing Texas east of the Brazos and north of the Canadian River until it reaches the Continental Divide while gaining land in the Oregon Country; the border is defined by the Snake and Columbia River instead of the 42nd parallel, leaving all lands south to Mexico. Mexico ends up reviving the Spanish claim to the Pacific Northwest as a result, though limits itself to what it gained at American expense. Fort Astoria and Fort Vancouver being in British hands in lands claimed by the Mexicans raise eyebrows in London but Mexico manages to not fumble the entire thing and calls for a summit to settle the Oregon Country once and for all with America as the weakest party at the table. The end result is something like this:

* Mexico ends up with their borders as written in the peace between the USA and Mexico. All of Oregon, a chunk of southeast Washington, and a sliver of Idaho that's south of the Snake River are their gains
* The American claims in Oregon Country are defined by the Mexican claims to the south, and the 48th parallel up until it reaches the Columbia River, at which point it follows the river until it reaches the 49th parallel and follows the rest of the British-American border east
* The British border is all lands north of the American border(48th parallel until it reaches the Columbia River)

The USA wins in the primary theater of war, Mexico in the secondary, and a bitter rivalry is born. Mexico and the USA spend the next century competing to populate their claims in the interior of North America and for influence in the New World and the Pacific. The USA leverages its booming birth rates and the immigration of Protestants from Europe, having hardened its anti-Catholic stances after their loss of most of the Oregon Country and continued rivalry with Mexico. Mexico ends up receiving the majority of Catholic immigration that OTL went to the USA. Aside from a large number of Irish Catholics, Mexico receives many Spaniards, Italians, Catholic Germans, and Poles in this period and experiences decent demographic growth of its own due to its stability and growing economy. The USA's also likely to have stronger internal discontent than OTL; northerners blaming the southerners for the loss of most of Oregon Country for a small strip of slave land, and vice versa viewing the northern states as perfidious allies that could have done more to secure a greater victory over Mexico.

Choose your poison from here; fracture America, have the USA and Mexico keep relative parity, have one gain a late advantage over the other in ATL-World Wars, etc. Though I imagine that Mexico's probably more successful in both the New World and the Pacific than the USA when it comes to soft power due to their shared language and religion with the rest of Latin America and their existing ties with the Phillippines, while the USA whether its a rump North or not hard claps the Mexicans in industrial development.
That's interesting speculation, a few points though. Catholic immigrants to the United States didn't see the USA as anti Catholic, they saw it as a land of personal freedom. The idea that Catholics felt appressed is more the thinking of modern schoolers. Catholics were writing home to relatives, and friends telling them to come, and sending them money to get there. They thought they were being oppressed in their home countries. Anti Catholic movements like the No Nothings would rise, and fall with each generation after 1840, but Catholics continued to increase in numbers, wealth, and influence.

Even if Mexico is more stable it's population isn't used to self government, or individual liberty, and their standard of living was dismal. The Government is still going to be highly higharchacal The Irish speak English, and the climate is more hospitable to them in the Northern USA, the same it true for the Poles, and U.S. ports are closer to Europe, and cheaper to get to. The slogan "Come to Texas, to learn Spanish, and fight Comanche's" isn't that appealing to most Irish tenant farmers. The American settlers that came to Texas were used to fighting Indians.

A more stable Mexico is kind of an ill defined idea. Just what does it mean? No civil wars, revolts, or coups? What would make Mexico so much stronger militarily between 1821-46 to be able to stand up to the United States? The U.S. wanted California, Texas, and New Mexico, so what was going to stop them from taking them? The U.S. Pacific Squadron took California with almost no resistance, where was a Mexican Fleet going to come from? With almost no population in California how would they make effective claim up to the Columbia River?

A more stable Mexico would still have to go though so many reforms, and social revolutions to achieve the status of a successful modern national State. I can see Mexico being more prosperious, and peaceful, but not with any more territory then they had after 1848, or 53.
 
Stability is a complete game changer. Results may approach wank mode, especially if the stability comes along with a less destructive struggle for independence.
If stability means simply not fracturing apart, you're still going to vast positive effects: better growth economically, politically, and population/immigration.
If stability comes with some moderate forward thinking policy with various factions compromising enough to promote social/class/economic growth, you're going to see massive growth fueling a healthy economy, immigration, and overall improvement of all facets of society, policies, education, investment etc.
If stability is some almost magical super transformation of government and country, put your brain into wank imagination.

The third option is highly unlikely, but you could get some blend of the first two. Assuming this, you're going to see a more orderly populating of the north, including Texas. Roads and communication are going to improve, meaning the north is more connected. One has to remember that the USA had major geological hurdles to overcome, too.

War with the USA is far from assured. OTL, USA correctly saw an easy victory, and could afford to be boastful. ATL, they are going to be quite hesitant to be so aggressive, especially if the Mexican independence comes with alliance with Spain and/or other countries. Despite Mexico having the best claim to Oregon, USA has the best ability to take/hold it. Britain is the wild card. They may see Mexico as a valid counter balance to an emerging USA, and choose to back them. USA and Britain were major trade partners, which is why Britain typically were generous in compromise after the war of 1812, but if Britain thinks it can still hold on to USA trade (which it likely will) AND gain trade with Mexico, there may be a three way brokering of how North America is divvied up, with Mexico making out quite well as compared to OTL. OR, Britain and USA cozy up to oppose Mexico, in which case Mexico knows it's fooked, and backs down. In this case, Mexico likely still retains a decent border. If Mexico still remains stable, it is going to grow, and solidify into a major regional power, big enough that OTL USA greedy aggressiveness is butterflied away. There will be a power struggle for hegemony in the Caribbean, which offers opportunity for war breaking out. If USA civil war breaks out, Mexico would be in good position to take advantage, both in that war, or to expand sphere of influence.

Bottom line is that no matter how you envision Mexico going, with stability you can throw out all assumptions typically associated with OTL (such as USA destined to dominate them/take whatever land they want, and Mexico destined to be backwards/self destructive).
 
One problem, as far as the areas lost to the United States, is that even with stability and increased wealth there is no real incentive to populate Mexico del Norte north and south of the OTL border. The area is mostly unsuitable for agriculture and until the development of railroads there was no reasonable way to cover the vast distances between del Norte and the Mexican core regions of the central highlands and the Monterrey to Vera Cruz coastal area. And there is always Comancheria to deal with. The wild card would be California gold. If the discovery is made in a California belonging to a stable and competent Mexico, the incentive is there to move North. Adding California gold to a stable Mexico would be a historic change.
 
Also before the train.. One has to look at water usage as well. Notable that this was a very sparsely populated area.. For good reason.
1. Temperatures
2. Water
3. Terrain

Maybe not in all that order.. But yeah

Now that said. I agree that if you get a more or less stable mexico under what ever system. ( doesn't have to be straight up democracy.. Not even sure what that means anyway as there really is no such thing. Every state is about the state and feeding the rich anyway while the rest have carried levels of access to be managers or serfs).

So on that note. If Mexico can hold these lands in Texas, alto California, even Oregon, plus at the same time attract people to be settle and stay loyal to Mexico. We'll.. That's going to limit US growth on land. This may in turn break the usa apart along north south lines over domestic policy, but then again a strong Mexico that is a tad more enlightened may scare the piss out of Southern US states enough to keep the union together.

To the south, can mecixo hold grand Columbia and the central states? It was rough to keep the Yucatan in line. This is jungle territory. One way would be to get the canal built by either route or both who knows.

The key to Mexico is Mexico acting as the savior for Spanish America, heck have them pull the Spanish American war with Mexico taking the place of the usa, thus gaining Cuba or other territories as part of a commonwealth or outright anaxation lane Arion could put more stress in many ways though.

So for giggles, the pod needs to be setting a high bar from the begining to reform Mexico, integrate and centralize with fair autonomy to the states to keep them loyal to the state, but firm enough that they don't get ideas. Competent leadership at the right moments and most of all keeping the USA out of Mexican lands if even by force of arms.

It's not impossible to have Mexico be either as strong or stronger even then the USA. attract and assimilate immigrants, encourage creative minds and industrial power.
 
One problem, as far as the areas lost to the United States, is that even with stability and increased wealth there is no real incentive to populate Mexico del Norte north and south of the OTL border. The area is mostly unsuitable for agriculture and until the development of railroads there was no reasonable way to cover the vast distances between del Norte and the Mexican core regions of the central highlands and the Monterrey to Vera Cruz coastal area. And there is always Comancheria to deal with. The wild card would be California gold. If the discovery is made in a California belonging to a stable and competent Mexico, the incentive is there to move North. Adding California gold to a stable Mexico would be a historic change.
If the USAmericans wanted to move there, there's obviously an incentive to move there. A Mexican gov't can create a movement to populate the habitable regions, and there is a sizeable 'good' area. OTL, Mexican gov'ts recognized the need to do so, but the instability was a major roadblock in implementation of migration policies.
 
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