How powerful could the Vasa dynasty become?

The Vasa dynasty only ruled Sweden and Poland, and the latter very briefly. There was also the possibility of Vasa claiming the Russian throne, and at one point Erik XIV also pursued to marry Elizabeth I of England, perhaps being able to extend the Vasa dynasty to the English throne.

Did the Vasa dynasty have potential to spread even further? I could imagine the Vasas ruling some German kingdoms, but could the Vasas ever become as powerful as say, the Habsburger dynasty or the Hozenhollern?
 
Correction: if we're thinking the seventeenth century, and Gustavus Adolphus manages to build a confederation of the German princes and then doesn't die at an early age, the answer might be surprising. Because at that point you have the Swedish Empire plus the Germans. Consider the difficulty Sweden's rivals like Poland and Russia had dispatching it with Adolphus's efforts in the Thirty Years War having been undone? If they're facing a Baltic superpower plus northern Germany, those advantages become almost prohibitive at a certain point.
 
As powerful as you can persuade Poland and Sweden to be one religion. That's the actual issue.
Even this is not required. Vasas would be better if there is no conflict between Polish and Swedish branch, which with OTL story of usurpation was not possible, but...
Say John III Vasa have two surviving sons with Catherine Jagiellon-younger one resemble OTL Sigismund Vasa, older is male version of Anna Vasa (converts to Lutheranism, but still keeps good relations with Catholic brother). With two sons-one Catholic, one Lutheran, division of Polish and Swedish branch is peaceful, PLC and Sweden are allied, crushing Russia and Habsburgs toghether.
 
If we could get a successful Vasa dynasty in Russia that could still further extend their power - I figure since Gustaf Eriksen (son of Erik XIV), Sigmund III, Wladyslaw IV and Carl Philipp (second son of Carl IX) all threw their hat in the ring at various points one would think at least one horse in the race would win.
 

Toraach

Banned
The most powerful Vasa ruled empire would have been that one from Władysławowo to Władywostok (you know this as Vladivostok, Władywostok is a polish transcription Владивосто́к).
 
Pretty ASB but: Gustavus adolphus wins the 30yw, crowned Protestant HRE, able to centralise the empire under a protestant imperial church. His heir presses a claim to the PLC, and somewhere down the line denmark-norway get reintegrated in a pseudo-kalmar union 2.0. That will form an empire from the Rhine to the Ukraine, and from the alps to the north pole.
 
If we could get a successful Vasa dynasty in Russia that could still further extend their power - I figure since Gustaf Eriksen (son of Erik XIV), Sigmund III, Wladyslaw IV and Carl Philipp (second son of Carl IX) all threw their hat in the ring at various points one would think at least one horse in the race would win.
Vasa prince successfully imposed on the throne in Moscow means, with big likehood, Vasa prince murdered by boyars.
 
Vasa prince successfully imposed on the throne in Moscow means, with big likehood, Vasa prince murdered by boyars.
Karl Philip was promoted by a Boyar faction, at least. The competition being at some point of time in Pro-Polish camp then gets declared traitors and beheaded/sent somewhere in nice places down North Dvina etc (IMO he's more plausible of the two to hold power).
 
Vasa prince successfully imposed on the throne in Moscow means, with big likehood, Vasa prince murdered by boyars.

You can break the throne is Moscow and build less impressive thrones out of the wreckage though (The Vasas won't be sitting on all of them, of course, but there are some solid bits they could claim for themselves. A Principality of Novgorod, for example). Keep sufficent pressure on eastward expansion by Poland, Sweden, and the Ottomans rather than having them look westward for opportunities/involvements (The "Sable Gold" of the Siberian fur trade could be a drawing factor like the bever was in North America, followed up by timbering and agriculture once the forests were tapped out) and the Rus and steppe peoples could be assimilated or displaced
 
If we could get a successful Vasa dynasty in Russia that could still further extend their power - I figure since Gustaf Eriksen (son of Erik XIV), Sigmund III, Wladyslaw IV and Carl Philipp (second son of Carl IX) all threw their hat in the ring at various points one would think at least one horse in the race would win.

There was a big problem, both for Polish (Wladislaw) and Swedish (Charles Phillip) candidates to the Russian throne: demand to convert to the Orthodoxy, which would prevent the candidates from also ruling the Catholic Commonwealth or Lutheran Sweden. Sigismund tried to get Russian throne for himself just by a virtue of conquest but this attempt failed both due to the absence of funds (Sejm was anything but enthusiastic about the schema) and to the Russian resistance (an idea of a Catholic king was a taboo).

Wladislaw ended up with achieving the greatest territorial expansion of the Commonwealth making it probably the biggest European state (not sure if the remaining European territory of the Tsardom of Moscow was bigger) but after him it was shrinking all the way.
 
You can break the throne is Moscow and build less impressive thrones out of the wreckage though (The Vasas won't be sitting on all of them, of course, but there are some solid bits they could claim for themselves. A Principality of Novgorod, for example).

Swedes had been occupying Novgorod region for quite a while but time for remaking it into independent principality was most probably gone. Smolensk region remained in the Polish hands until mid-XVII. As far as survival of the Tsardom was involved, none of these areas was critical.

Keep sufficent pressure on eastward expansion by Poland, Sweden, and the Ottomans rather than having them look westward for opportunities/involvements.

There are some problems with the schema the main of which is a fact that, instead of acting in concert, these conquerors to be had been at each other's throat. There was a series of the Polish-Swedish Wars which ended with the Swedish conquest of Livonia and a series of the Polish-Ottoman Wars which were a continued mess. The Ottoman conquest of the parts of Tsardom of Moscow was not quite practical both by the reason of geography and by the purely political ones: their attempt to conquer Astrakhan failed to a great degree due to the Crimean sabotage. Anyway, with Ukraine being Polish and with the Polish designs toward Moldavia and Walachia, most of the Ottoman activities were anti-Polish.

(The "Sable Gold" of the Siberian fur trade could be a drawing factor like the bever was in North America, followed up by timbering and agriculture once the forests were tapped out) and the Rus and steppe peoples could be assimilated or displaced

Errrrrr.... do you understand the distances and other problems involved in this "grand schema"? Including certain differences between the "Muscovites" of the XVII century (term "Rus" was obsolete by at least 2 - 3 centuries) and American Indians in the terms of the numbers and familiarity with the modern weaponry.:)
 
Karl Philip was promoted by a Boyar faction, at least. The competition being at some point of time in Pro-Polish camp then gets declared traitors and beheaded/sent somewhere in nice places down North Dvina etc (IMO he's more plausible of the two to hold power).

At least in theory this schema could work providing (a) Karl Phillip lived longer, (b) converted into Orthodoxy, (c) his acceptance meant return of Novgorod and most of other Muscovite areas hold by the Swedes, (d) Swedish commitment to help in inevitable war against the Commonwealth, (e) his willingness to adopt the Russian habits.

There is (author still keeps adding the chapters) alt-history series of books about adventures of a modern person who ends up in a body of (non-existent) John, Prince of Meklenburg, and eventually (after getting a stellar military reputation on Swedish service, marrying sister of Gustav Adolph and helping to expel the Poles from Moscow) ends up as being elected Tsar of Moscow (he is advocating for Karl Phillip but the poor boy dies at the most convenient moment and there is already a powerful party of John's admirers and supporters). One of the most important things for him is to adopt all Russian habits like sleeping after the dinner (extremely important), looking extremely pious, etc. and then to get credits for negotiating return of Novgorod with his brother-in-law. ;)
 
There is (author still keeps adding the chapters) alt-history series of books about adventures of a modern person who ends up in a body of (non-existent) John, Prince of Meklenburg, and eventually (after getting a stellar military reputation on Swedish service, marrying sister of Gustav Adolph and helping to expel the Poles from Moscow) ends up as being elected Tsar of Moscow (he is advocating for Karl Phillip but the poor boy dies at the most convenient moment and there is already a powerful party of John's admirers and supporters). One of the most important things for him is to adopt all Russian habits like sleeping after the dinner (extremely important), looking extremely pious, etc. and then to get credits for negotiating return of Novgorod with his brother-in-law. ;)
Oh the Godunov-time ISOTs... A mascot of Russian pop alt history may as well be sealion with Boris Godunov's head and regalia.
Though the more successful TLs either revert around such Johns (ASB) or make an OTL person into expy of one (less ASB).
 
The Vasa dynasty only ruled Sweden and Poland, and the latter very briefly. There was also the possibility of Vasa claiming the Russian throne, and at one point Erik XIV also pursued to marry Elizabeth I of England, perhaps being able to extend the Vasa dynasty to the English throne.

Did the Vasa dynasty have potential to spread even further? I could imagine the Vasas ruling some German kingdoms, but could the Vasas ever become as powerful as say, the Habsburger dynasty or the Hozenhollern?

At some point they had been more powerful than Hohenzollern (who were not such a big deal until mid-XVIII) and powerful enough to keep HApsburgs scared. And if you start counting the Holstein-Gottorp line (link to Vasa through a female line), then you have the whole line of the Russian emperors, Holstein-Gottorp-Romanovs. :)
 
Oh the Godunov-time ISOTs... A mascot of Russian pop alt history may as well be sealion with Boris Godunov's head and regalia.
Though the more successful TLs either revert around such Johns (ASB) or make an OTL person into expy of one (less ASB).

Not Godunov time-line: it is end of the Time of the Troubles and start of the Russian revival. Personally, I have a lot of problems with the genre in general because most of the authors don't know where to stop their "modernization" efforts (and usually, are not good writers). This one knows where to limit hero's activities and writes reasonably well.
 
Not Godunov time-line: it is end of the Time of the Troubles and start of the Russian revival. Personally, I have a lot of problems with the genre in general because most of the authors don't know where to stop their "modernization" efforts (and usually, are not good writers). This one knows where to limit hero's activities and writes reasonably well.
By Godunov times I consider the PODs in 1595-1615 time range which this falls sqarely in. But we're derailing the thread with bad fiction bashing (or good fiction recommendation - can I get a link?).
 
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