How plausible would it have been for Khazars to convert to Islam?

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raharris1973

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...and if they did, would that increase the odds of the Russians also converting to Islam, since the Khazars would be sitting astride the route between them and the straits for a long time?

Would it have been plausible for the Khazars to convert to Orthodoxy? If so, does it accelerate Russia's adoption of Eastern Orthodoxy, or does it somehow make it more likely that Russia will adopt Roman Catholicism?
 

raharris1973

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Ah, I didn't know about survivals of that population into the second millennium.

Let's rephrase the question as How plausible would it have been for the Khazar ruling class to convert to Islam before AD 987 ?
 
I doubt that the Khazars would convert to Islam within the timeframe, mainly do to the facts of Abbasid influence and would be more likely to convert to Orthodox Christianity. At this time the Arab caliphates (Abbasid and Umayyad) would claim sovereignty over all believers and would fight to force the said believer to join the caliphate, it was only till the Turks cane on the scene plus enormous social upheaval (Shia and Khawarij revolts) did the Caliph stop this policy. At the same time Byzantium did not claim such power and attempt to gain it, this is shown through the example of Russia, which would be an example of how Khazaria would look.

So in short, the Khazara wished to keep themselves independent from both polities (hince conversion to Judaism) but if he has to choose they would either stay Tengri or would have a Russian style conversion to Christianity.

Btw, there is evidence of Khazars in Israel today known as the Khazareim. It was the later Tatars,Qipchaks and Cumans that would convert to Islam while a portion of the Khazars moved to Eastern Europe.
 
we don't know how widespread adoption of Judaism by the Khazars was outside of their ruling class. there's not a huge amount of evidence other than some coins and Rhomanoi diplomatic sources. So I am sceptical that converting to any other religion would have had more impact. Converting to Judaism (or something like Arian/Nestorian christianity) keeps them safe from the Rhomans, converting to Islam emphatically does not, you can't have much impact on the Russians when you are dead.
 

LordKalvert

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By most accounts the Khazars were of many religions and that while there were a lot of converts to Judaism among the elite that's about as far as they went.

There were also a lot of Muslims and Christians among the elite

As for the Russians, they were going Christian no matter what. "Drink is the Joy of the Rus we cannot live without it"
 

raharris1973

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As for the Russians, they were going Christian no matter what. "Drink is the Joy of the Rus we cannot live without it"

Were the Islamic injunctions of the time against all intoxicating drinks or just wine? Wine is what they would have had in the Middle East. Northern Europeans would have been beer drinkers. Distilled liquors had not been invented yet and when they were, it was in Islamic Sicily.


..and I did always wonder how important the drinking thing was compared to great power politics and trade.
 
All Intoxicating are BANNED

Were the Islamic injunctions of the time against all intoxicating drinks or just wine?.


There are also many Ahaadith stated by the Prophet in regards to intoxicants.

1) Jabir reported that the Holy Prophet said, "Whosoever drinks wine, whip him. If he repeats it for the fourth time, kill him." He (Jabir) says, A man was later brought to the Prophet who had drunk wine for the fourth time. He beat him, but did not kill him (Tirmidhi, Abu Dawood).



The following Hadith clearly states that the Prophet prohibited intoxicants.


2) Ibn Umar reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "Every intoxicant is khamr (wine) and every intoxicant is haraam (unlawful). Whosoever drinks wine in this world and dies whilst consumed in it and does not repent will not drink it in the next world (Muslim) .
3) Jabir narrates that a man came from Yemen and asked the Prophet about a wine made from corn called ‘Mizr’, which they drank, in their land. The Prophet asked, "Is it intoxicating?" He replied, "Yes" The Prophet said, "Every intoxicant is unlawful. Verily there is covenant upon Allah for one who drinks intoxicating drinks, that he will make him drink from ‘Teenatul Khabal,’ they asked, "O messenger of Allah, what is Teenatul Khabal?" He said, "The sweat of the inmates of hell or the pus (of impurities) of the inmates of hell." (Muslim)



4) Abdullah ibn Umar reports that the Prophet said, "Whosoever drinks wine, Allah will not accept his prayer for 40 days. If he seeks repentance Allah will forgive him. And if he repeats it Allah will not accept his prayer for 40 days.
If he seeks repentance Allah will forgive him. And if he repeats it again Allah will not accept his prayer for 40 days. If he seeks repentance Allah will forgive him. If he repeats it for the fourth time Allah will not accept his prayer for 40 days. If he seeks repentance Allah will not accept it and he will be made to drink from the river of impurities (of the inmates of hell).
(Tirmidhi, Nasai, Ibn Majah and Daarami from Ibn Amr)​
5) Jabir narrated that the Messenger of Allah said; "Whatever intoxicates in a greater quantity is also unlawful in its smaller quantity." (Tirmidhi, Abu Dawood and Ibn Majah).


http://www.inter-islam.org/index.htm
 
Probably, they did.
"Arab armies led first by the prince Maslamah ibn Abd al-Malik and then by Marwan ibn Muhammad (later Caliph Marwan II) poured across the Caucasus and in 737 defeated a Khazar army led by Hazer Tarkhan, briefly occupying Atil itself. The Qağan was forced to accept terms involving conversion to Islam, and to subject himself to the Caliphate, but the accommodation was short-lived as a combination of internal instability among the Umayyads and Byzantine support undid the agreement within three years, and the Khazars re-asserted their independence."

If they stay Muslims - maybe, the Civil war of IX century will not began or at least will not be so catastrophic as in OTL.

Maybe Khazars will have some preferences in trade with Caliphate - it means, Qağan will have some more money and he will be able to have some more numerous army.

And Rus probably will convert to Islam too, because trade with Khazars was very important for Rus in X century.
 

raharris1973

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If they stay Muslims - maybe, the Civil war of IX century will not began or at least will not be so catastrophic as in OTL.

Maybe Khazars will have some preferences in trade with Caliphate - it means, Qağan will have some more money and he will be able to have some more numerous army.

And Rus probably will convert to Islam too, because trade with Khazars was very important for Rus in X century

Finally I get the answer I was shopping for from lokaloki- thanks.

I wonder if this is the best single PoD for the Rus converting to Islam (at least excluding ones where Constantinople falls to Arabs or Bulgaria (the Balkan state, not the Volga one) converts to Islam, as in one Harry Turtledove story I think)

Two follow-up questions-how likely are the Islamized Rus to become dominant compared to the Khazars eventually?

...and can the Rus go with the anti-alcohol tenets of Islam.
 
how likely are the Islamized Rus to become dominant compared to the Khazars eventually?

If Khazars are stronger than in OTL, then Rus has not many chances until XI century, I think. Cumans were very strong, maybe they crashed Khazars. But Rus will be quite different.

...and can the Rus go with the anti-alcohol tenets of Islam.

Does Islam deny all alcohol or only alcohol form grape and wheat? ("It is mead!" (c), "13th warrior").
 
Does Islam deny all alcohol or only alcohol form grape and wheat? ("It is mead!" (c), "13th warrior").

I don't know, but isn't most vodka made from potatoes? Plus, you have cider, fruit beers and wines, and that Apache drink I can't remember. Also, sake. Considering that Muslims don't deink any of those, I wouldn't say so in answer to your first question.
 
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