How not to build a submarine. The Collins Class.

[Blue cat]

The Australian boats will use a sealed unit highly enriched uranium fueled (US designed and possibly made reactor) as the heat source for the turbo-electric steam plant. If the French actually had such a technology or another friendly nation had it, then it is likely that the Australian government would have gone that route instead of the US. The logic with the power-egg approach is that the HEU fuel is not third party accessible or achievable without cracking the reactor open which would be somewhat "difficult". Whether the reactor is installed in Australia is kind of the question. It might not be practical to build the power-egg in Australia for assorted technical reasons, though frankly I do not see why Australia could not build such power eggs locally.

IMHO this would likely help with concerns re the practicalities and optics of a non nuclear weapons state that presumably will still be in compliance with the NPT having nuclear submarines that use HEU.

I seem to recall when Canada was contemplating getting nuclear submarines there were comments made by some parties that a nation that possessed enough HEU for a fleet of nuclear subs might be considered to be a defacto nuclear weapons state. I didn't really agree with that then and I suspect that won't be a widely held view today, but a sealed and foreign supplied nuclear reactor might be helpful in addressing those concerns.

 

[gatordad699]

I find the whole HEU falling into the hands of terrorists almost laughable. IMHO it’s just crap brought up by the NNSA (a government department looking for something to do). Like McP points out it’s in a core. It’s also inside a fuel assembly. It’s not big pieces of HEU either. It’s very small pieces precisely placed inside a fuel matrix. You’d have to take a crazy irradiated fuel assembly (legend says if you run at one at the end of an American football field, you’d die before reaching it), chemical separate the HEU, recover it, fashion it into something useful, and then use it. There’s a reason it’s never even been attempted. Plus if you did manage to steal a fuel assembly you’d have just about every government on the planet trying to kill you.

 

[gatordad699]

Just to be clear, Turbo-electric drive removes the noise signature of a reduction gear in the submarine direct drive propulsion train and replaces it with electric motors. As far as I know, no one has developed a direct energy conversion or MHD propulsion setup for submarines yet. The French use T/E on some of their submarines. The USN has used it on battleships and on the USS Tullibee.

The US tried to scale up the Tullibee on the USS Glenard Lipscome. Both of those used older DC motor technology. Was too heavy and maintenance intensive. With modern electronic controls you can precisely control an AC induction motor with stepped DC. Motors and controls are amazing nowadays. Couple that to a modern pump jet and the Columbia class will be very quiet. Think the Zumwalt class uses electric drive as well. Curious, what do you mean by “direct energy conversion?” Taking heat and directly converting it into electricity?

 

[McPherson]

The US tried to scale up the Tullibee on the USS Glenard Lipscome. Both of those used older DC motor technology. Was too heavy and maintenance intensive. With modern electronic controls you can precisely control an AC induction motor with stepped DC. Motors and controls are amazing nowadays. Couple that to a modern pump jet and the Columbia class will be very quiet. Think the Zumwalt class uses electric drive as well. Curious, what do you mean by “direct energy conversion?” Taking heat and directly converting it into electricity?

Direct energy conversion is proton trapping from a fusion reactor. The protons pass through a permanent magnetic field in such fashion that the setup induces a current flow in a wire wrap and that contraption spins itself mechanically. Hypothetically, that is. MHD is a similar process to create and extract work from an electric current, but it is a high temperature process (As in a plasma rocket motor.).

Both processes do not work too well on a submarine for obvious reasons.

 

[gatordad699]

Direct energy conversion is proton trapping from a fusion reactor. The protons pass through a permanent magnetic field in such fashion that the setup induces a current flow in a wire wrap and that contraption spins itself mechanically. Hypothetically, that is. MHD is a similar process to create and extract work from an electric current, but it is a high temperature process (As in a plasma rocket motor.).

Both processes do not work too well on a submarine for obvious reasons.

Interesting. Thanks.

 

[Riain]

I have a bit of a tangent WI now we're on the new path.

In 2014/15 when the French were schmoozing to grt the contract the Japanese didn't turn up, instead working on organising their industry to actually deliver boats. We all know how that worked out, but WI we went Japanese in 2016 and they built at least one boat in Japan? Would we have boats under construction now?

 

[Riain]

Just heard Simon Birmingham hint at lease and/or increased joint operations with SSNs, surprisingly enough what's obvious to me is obvious to the government.

 

[Not James Stockdale]

The US tried to scale up the Tullibee on the USS Glenard Lipscome. Both of those used older DC motor technology. Was too heavy and maintenance intensive. With modern electronic controls you can precisely control an AC induction motor with stepped DC. Motors and controls are amazing nowadays. Couple that to a modern pump jet and the Columbia class will be very quiet. Think the Zumwalt class uses electric drive as well. Curious, what do you mean by “direct energy conversion?” Taking heat and directly converting it into electricity?

You can use an electric drive to avoid the noise associated with the reduction gearing, but you will still need the water/steam loop and the steam turbine to drive a generator to get all the electricity.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Not sure if it has been mentioned but this 'new arrangement' has a couple of things going for it

Firstly after gutting its submarine industry due to inactivity during the peace dividend years (1994 - 2001), the UK had to almost relearn the business of building 'boats' from the ground up with as I understand it quite a lot help from GE in the US.

Having gone through that quite painful process a lot of the lessons learned can be applied to this Australian program, hopefully avoiding many of the issues that BAe had along the way.

The 2nd thing is the RAN offices hold a 'Crown' commission just like their RN counter parts meaning that, while there is probably no real issues with USN officers working with the RAN and vice versa there would be less hurdles between the RAN and the RN, especially with regards to RN officers working on RAN boats etc.

 

[McPherson]

You can use an electric drive to avoid the noise associated with the reduction gearing, but you will still need the water/steam loop and the steam turbine to drive a generator to get all the electricity.

Convection current circulation is the way around the pump noise, but then one still has the whir of spinning mechanicals, such as shaft rub, and one has to mitigate expansion / contraction cycles in the flash evaporator which produces noise of its own.

Not sure if it has been mentioned but this 'new arrangement' has a couple of things going for it

Let us address?

Firstly after gutting its submarine industry due to inactivity during the peace dividend years (1994 - 2001), the UK had to almost relearn the business of building 'boats' from the ground up with as I understand it quite a lot help from GE in the US.

Interesting thing about that bolo. If one looks at the CAD firms which were subcontractors on the two original screwed up Astutes, one finds considerable French involvement, as in ownership of the CAD firms. Then one looks at the original screwed up Virginia and one finds... This was noticed.

Having gone through that quite painful process a lot of the lessons learned can be applied to this Australian program, hopefully avoiding many of the issues that BAe had along the way.

Lessons learned are that one does not design airliners or submarines without wind-tunnel or tank testing and one does not design an artifact by using school trained designer idiots who do not know the first thing about flying it or swimming it.

The 2nd thing is the RAN offices hold a 'Crown' commission just like their RN counter parts meaning that, while there is probably no real issues with USN officers working with the RAN and vice versa there would be less hurdles between the RAN and the RN, especially with regards to RN officers working on RAN boats etc.

If that is a chain of responsibility thing in a crisis, what happens when the RAN has a bigger fleet of boats than the RN? Who tells who when to "Get off the bus, this is where you stop?" There is a lot of BAD history there that has not gone away. I refer specifically to which navy does one trust? John Bull or John Paul Jones?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

If that is a chain of responsibility thing in a crisis, what happens when the RAN has a bigger fleet of boats than the RN? Who tells who when to "Get off the bus, this is where you stop?" There is a lot of BAD history there that has not gone away. I refer specifically to which navy does one trust? John Bull or John Paul Jones?

Well that's not going to happen for a few decades yet is it (if at all) - with the RN having a significant amount of experience over the RAN

As for trust issues - both have had their moments

 

[Riain]

Not sure if it has been mentioned but this 'new arrangement' has a couple of things going for it

Firstly after gutting its submarine industry due to inactivity during the peace dividend years (1994 - 2001), the UK had to almost relearn the business of building 'boats' from the ground up with as I understand it quite a lot help from GE in the US.

Having gone through that quite painful process a lot of the lessons learned can be applied to this Australian program, hopefully avoiding many of the issues that BAe had along the way.

The 2nd thing is the RAN offices hold a 'Crown' commission just like their RN counter parts meaning that, while there is probably no real issues with USN officers working with the RAN and vice versa there would be less hurdles between the RAN and the RN, especially with regards to RN officers working on RAN boats etc.

My gut feeling is that you've nailed the reasons the UK is involved.

If the RAN picks the Astute, and for various reasons it looks favourable, it would give the British more critical mass for its own nuclear submarine industry while keeping the US free to go full speed ahead with its construction programme.

The Crown commission, or warrant etc means RAN personnel can be used interchangeably in a way they cannot with the USN. To the extent that I believe an Australian could command a jointly crewed RN submarine, or an RN submarine could join the RAN submarine flotilla and be under the full command of the RAN, whereas that could not possibly happen with the USN. Not that the USN is recalcitrant or anything, we have few problems operating with the US, but when things get as close as joint operations or leasing as both Dutton and Birmingham have mentioned over the weekend Australians giving orders to Brits is legal and well established.

What the vibe on Britain's future with regard to Defence? I see they've sent 2 boats of some sort out EoS to remain for 5 years and the SSN deal is being talked about in terms of a global Britain. Is it possible that Britain might shrink the Army to give the Navy another couple of SSNs and DDGs in the coming decade?

 

[Riain]

What about Tranches, how does this concept appply to the SSNs?

IIRC the Attack class were the to be delivered every 2 years over a 25 year period, and there was some talk that this would result in Tranches of boats, for example boat 4 or 5 might have light metal batteries which would make it fundamentally different to early boats, and with boats 8-12 not being laid down until 2040+ the likelihood of them being like boats 1-4 is virtually zero.

How would this apply to (for the sake of argument) getting a British SSN? Would we get a couple-three Astutes in the 2030s and 5-6 of the just proposed future RN SSN in the 2040s? ScoMo has said we'll start building by the end of the decade, so my guess is we wouldn't be getting the future RN SSN because it won't be ready, we'll have to get something sooner which suggests Astutes.

 

[gatordad699]

Convection current circulation is the way around the pump noise, but then one still has the whir of spinning mechanicals, such as shaft rub, and one has to mitigate expansion / contraction cycles in the flash evaporator which produces noise of its own.

Let us address?

Interesting thing about that bolo. If one looks at the CAD firms which were subcontractors on the two original screwed up Astutes, one finds considerable French involvement, as in ownership of the CAD firms. Then one looks at the original screwed up Virginia and one finds... This was noticed.

Lessons learned are that one does not design airliners or submarines without wind-tunnel or tank testing and one does not design an artifact by using school trained designer idiots who do not know the first thing about flying it or swimming it.

If that is a chain of responsibility thing in a crisis, what happens when the RAN has a bigger fleet of boats than the RN? Who tells who when to "Get off the bus, this is where you stop?" There is a lot of BAD history there that has not gone away. I refer specifically to which navy does one trust? John Bull or John Paul Jones?

Not sure what you mean by flash/evaporator. Primary coolant runs through tubes of a steam generator. Heat is transferred to the secondary side to boil the water. The only flash evaporator was the primary water evaporator for making pure water. Those are all gone now, replaced by reverse osmosis units. Turbine generators now have magnetic bearings. The shaft never touches anything. Floats in a magnetic field. Virtually all machinery noise is isolated from the hull. (Can’t say how, it’s classified)

 

[McPherson]

Not sure what you mean by flash/evaporator. Primary coolant runs through tubes of a steam generator. Heat is transferred to the secondary side to boil the water. The only flash evaporator was the primary water evaporator for making pure water. Those are all gone now, replaced by reverse osmosis units. Turbine generators now have magnetic bearings. The shaft never touches anything. Floats in a magnetic field. Virtually all machinery noise is isolated from the hull. (Can’t say how, it’s classified)

1. Primary reactor uses flash evaporation as the coolant enters it unless it become intensely pressurized.
2. Unless I miss my guess, magnetic bearings levitating at the loads under discussion are a post 1990s development?

 

[gatordad699]

1. Primary reactor uses flash evaporation as the coolant enters it unless it become intensely pressurized.
2. Unless I miss my guess, magnetic bearings levitating at the loads under discussion are a post 1990s development?

USN reactors are all Pressurized Water (light water) Reactors. The pressure is kept high enough to prevent almost all but the slightest nucleate boiling. The only boiling is in the steam generators. I was lucky enough to be on the prototype ship, USS Tennessee, for testing of the first one. This was from around 95-2000. It was pretty interesting to see a rotor of that size just floating in a magnetic field (testing with the entire front end removed, not while running).

 

[Marquis]

Plus I wonder at US and British yard capacity.

US can build four units in serial sequence easy. Just requires the MONEY. That has always been the bottleneck.

Barrow can build 3 Astutes at a time IIRC (not including pre-shop floor work and post-launch fitting out). There are currently 2 Astutes on the shop floor, so in theory another one could be laid down as soon as the modules are available, and I suspect the next launch will be late 2022-2023. It looks like from ordering to keel-laying is 3 years, glancing at the facts on Agamemnon, so it depends on how quickly the Aussies move on pulling the trigger on a couple of nuke boats.

 

[McPherson]

Barrow can build 3 Astutes at a time IIRC (not including pre-shop floor work and post-launch fitting out). There are currently 2 Astutes on the shop floor, so in theory another one could be laid down as soon as the modules are available, and I suspect the next launch will be late 2022-2023. It looks like from ordering to keel-laying is 3 years, glancing at the facts on Agamemnon, so it depends on how quickly the Aussies move on pulling the trigger on a couple of nuke boats.

That would be in sections? Are the modules built already to be joined? That is the question.

 

[Marquis]

That would be in sections? Are the modules built already to be joined? That is the question.

I understand that each module is built flat (as if the submarine is going up vertically, then rotated up by cranes to be joined. I'm rewatching an old documentary at the moment on the subject of building the Astutes which might be of interest to you:

 

[Count of Crisco]

So with the cancelation of the Attack class and the Australian decision to move towards nuclear boats what other nations out there may be looking for a larger diesel-electric SSK like the short fin Barracuda?

The nations that spring to mind are the Netherlands, which has been looking at replacing their Walrus class and realizing they haven't the domestic know how to do so (seems like a similar but worse situation for them as the Aussies are in) and will need major effort to get that capacity again.

The other is potentially Canada, which doesn't have modern subs as far as I am aware, but likely needs something to counter the rising influence and activity of China and Russia.

Then maybe New Zealand? Not sure if they have subs atm or even want them. But potentially if the kiwi's did buy some subs they could help the RAN and lessen the numbers they need to buy themselves.

Could we see something like the Attack class emerging as an export design by major powers to smaller regional players who need longer ranged boats than typical D-E boats, but can't afford or don't want nuclear power?