or


The more I look into this program (The French are now proposing a lead-acid battery bank; not the Lithium Hydride promised.) the more I think the German/Japanese/US option (Plan B.) is cheaper, faster, and technically better.

Will it happen? No.
Germans - smaller submarines with lower ranges than optimal.
Japan - unknown as a supplier and completely out of their depth (pun intended) as a military supplier. An unknown quantity as far as quality is concerned. Submarine has a less than optimal range.
The US - No conventional submarines in planning or production. The nuclear option is far as as Australia is concerned off the table. The USN would never loan/lease a SSN to anyone.

Peta Credlin is a right-wing shock-jock who works for a right-wing network. She was a fool when she advised the Prime Minister Tone Rabbit. She remains a fool in defence matters.
 
Yep, about time too. I still wouldn't mind a handful of new subs as well, to get 3 on station by 2025.
The problem with getting more submarines on station is not the number of submarines but the lack of crews. Crews are offered more to stay onshore and work in the mines. Their wives and families prefer them onshore to at sea. Guess which employer wins?
 
The problem with getting more submarines on station is not the number of submarines but the lack of crews. Crews are offered more to stay onshore and work in the mines. Their wives and families prefer them onshore to at sea. Guess which employer wins?
Does the RAN have a similar system to the Army in that it offers large incentives to British Army Soldiers and Royal Marines who have completed their service to come and work for the Australian Military (not sure if the same system is open to other 5 Eyes nations?).

If not maybe this could address some of the crewing issues?

I know that a large number of ex Royal Navy engineers are involved in the irrigation schemes in drought hit areas for example.....
 

McPherson

Banned
There is no need to apologize for there is the need to realize that the bastard hurt THE WEST.
Not a lot, sorry
Lessons Learned.

One of the things a foreign spy can do to a nation is make it harder to restore a situation after a surprise attack.

Much of what the Walker spy ring did has a correlative lessons learned in another example which I never forgot or forget or forgive. This one, too, affected Australia.

=============================================================

Lord William Forbes-Sempill – British Traitor – THE SANGHA ...

During the 1920s and 1930s, the Imperial Japanese Navy, behind in technique and capability, needed a little help to improve its ability to operate aviation in general and naval ship-borne aviation in particular. So what was Lord Sempill's contribution to maintenance of international peace and the keeping the balance of power?

By name, his work product and influence resulted in

Akagi
Kaga
Soryu
Hiryu
Shokaku
Zuikaku

As he passed helpful hints along the Japanese refitted or improved their flattops' operating characteristics from generation to generation. For example, Akagi and Kaga were directly rebuilt with HMS Furious lessons learned. The Japanese started with fly-off decks and a botched launch method for aircraft, same as the British did. Then they changed their methods and ship characteristics. The timing and the results, suspiciously alike, should have been a warning that something was rotten on the Clyde, but the signal was ignored in London and the Americans missed it, too.

Here are some other helpful hints, Mister Sempill passed along;

a. The ability to use British surface action group night fighting techniques with flare dropping float planes to backlight an enemy and silhouette them.
b. The concept of the aerial torpedo plane.

c. RIKKOs.
d. Probably the outlines of the Singapore Bastion Defense.
e. Massing one's aviation effects from the sea to devastate a port.

Results... China of course, because the Japanese bombed them from the sea...

Pearl Harbor
DARWIN

and finally CORAL SEA.

How did that affect Australia?

====================================================

Johnny Walker, who should have been hanged, betrayed USN secrets to the Russians of how the Americans operated their naval forces and how they communicated among themselves and with their allies.

What did the Russians learn from this betrayal?

Some things the Russians did not know, such as prop chirping, blade interleaving, rafting of machinery to prevent transmission of knock noise or humming into a hull, turning an entire ship's hull into a _____ ______ tuning fork, or a sound short; Mister Walker, because he was too stupid to understand just what can be gleaned from something as an innocent mechanical casualty report or routine patrol check-in, passed along as message traffic, he betrayed because the Russians are SMART and could see from the day traffic and household details of what the American navy could and could not do. Not just the obvious things I mentioned, but also the op-art of the sub vs sub stalk, patrol habits, range limits of signal acquisition as contact reports were sent in, the need to keep an acoustics library, how to fight with the underwater weather, and what THAT was around the globe.

The characteristics of US combat systems and allied ones the Russians learned, because some of that message traffic was RIMPAC type exercises simulated contacts and mock combat results.

When the Collins class put to sea, in 1996, the Americans were still repairing the Walker damage. Some things (advantages) could never be recovered, because weather is weather and physics is physics and Toshiba still happened. And when the Russians started to trail the new Australian subs, and collected sound fault and screw and sail noise data, they KNEW how to do it and for what to look.

But at least the Americans told the RAN to watch out. The British never told the Americans about Lord Sempill. The Americans found that one out the hard way at MIDWAY.

Thus endeth the lessons learned for today.
 
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McPherson

Banned
Not related directly to Australia or it's submarine programme.

The characteristics of US combat systems and allied ones the Russians learned, because some of that message traffic was RIMPAC type exercises simulated contacts and mock combat results.

When the Collins class put to sea, in 1996, the Americans were still repairing the Walker damage. Some things (advantages) could never be recovered, because weather is weather and physics is physics and Toshiba still happened. And when the Russians started to trail the new Australian subs, and collected sound fault and screw and sail noise data, they KNEW how to do it and for what to look.
Think the CHINESE are ignorant? Or that the Russians are not helping them?
 

Ramontxo

Donor
There is no need to apologize for there is the need to realize that the bastard hurt THE WEST.

Lessons Learned.

One of the things a foreign spy can do to a nation is make it harder to restore a situation after a surprise attack.

Much of what the Walker spy ring did has a correlative lessons learned in another example which I never forgot or forget or forgive. This one, too, affected Australia.

=============================================================

Lord William Forbes-Sempill – British Traitor – THE SANGHA ...

During the 1920s and 1930s, the Imperial Japanese Navy, behind in technique and capability, needed a little help to improve its ability to operate aviation in general and naval ship-borne aviation in particular. So what was Lord Sempill's contribution to maintenance of international peace and the keeping the balance of power?

By name, his work product and influence resulted in

Akagi
Kaga
Soryu
Hiryu
Shokaku
Zuikaku

As he passed helpful hints along the Japanese refitted or improved their flattops' operating characteristics from generation to generation. For example, Akagi and Kaga were directly rebuilt with HMS Furious lessons learned. The Japanese started with fly-off decks and a botched launch method for aircraft, same as the British did. Then they changed their methods and ship characteristics. The timing and the results, suspiciously alike, should have been a warning that something was rotten on the Clyde, but the signal was ignored in London and the Americans missed it, too.

Here are some other helpful hints, Mister Sempill passed along;

a. The ability to use British surface action group night fighting techniques with flare dropping float planes to backlight an enemy and silhouette them.
b. The concept of the aerial torpedo plane.

c. RIKKOs.
d. Probably the outlines of the Singapore Bastion Defense.
e. Massing one's aviation effects from the sea to devastate a port.

Results... China of course, because the Japanese bombed them from the sea...

Pearl Harbor
DARWIN

and finally CORAL SEA.

How did that affect Australia?

====================================================

Johnny Walker, who should have been hanged, betrayed USN secrets to the Russians of how the Americans operated their naval forces and how they communicated among themselves and with their allies.

What did the Russians learn from this betrayal?

Some things the Russians did not know, such as prop chirping, blade interleaving, rafting of machinery to prevent transmission of knock noise or humming into a hull, turning an entire ship's hull into a _____ ______ tuning fork, or a sound short; Mister Walker, because he was too stupid to understand just what can be gleaned from something as an innocent mechanical casualty report or routine patrol check-in, passed along as message traffic, he betrayed because the Russians are SMART and could see from the day traffic and household details of what the American navy could and could not do. Not just the obvious things I mentioned, but also the op-art of the sub vs sub stalk, patrol habits, range limits of signal acquisition as contact reports were sent in, the need to keep an acoustics library, how to fight with the underwater weather, and what THAT was around the globe.

The characteristics of US combat systems and allied ones the Russians learned, because some of that message traffic was RIMPAC type exercises simulated contacts and mock combat results.

When the Collins class put to sea, in 1996, the Americans were still repairing the Walker damage. Some things (advantages) could never be recovered, because weather is weather and physics is physics and Toshiba still happened. And when the Russians started to trail the new Australian subs, and collected sound fault and screw and sail noise data, they KNEW how to do it and for what to look.

But at least the Americans told the RAN to watch out. The British never told the Americans about Lord Sempill. The Americans found that one out the hard way at MIDWAY.

Thus endeth the lessons learned for today.
Yes I assume both had contiguous rooms in a very hot place...
 
The problem with getting more submarines on station is not the number of submarines but the lack of crews. Crews are offered more to stay onshore and work in the mines. Their wives and families prefer them onshore to at sea. Guess which employer wins?
Yeah I've been puzzled by the Australian governments Collins replacement plan which calls for replacing the 6 Collins with 12 new Boats. I mean they can't consistently man the 6 Collins and they want to replace them with twice as many. I mean I could sort of understand it if they were planning on heavily automating them to allow for a crew a good b it smaller then what a Collins requires. But in my admittedly extremely brief research the specs cited have them with roughly comparablely sized crews as the Collins.

So theyre planning on spending billions to double the sub force when they know they're probably only going to be able to man the same numbers of boats as the Collins.
 


Think the CHINESE are ignorant? Or that the Russians are not helping them?
Still not directly relevant. Australia is in a unique situation, we are not facing the Russians and the Chinese are less of a threat to us than you appear to believe. America fights it's own battles with them as far as I am concerned. America needs an enemy to justify its Military-Industrial machine.
 
Yeah I've been puzzled by the Australian governments Collins replacement plan which calls for replacing the 6 Collins with 12 new Boats. I mean they can't consistently man the 6 Collins and they want to replace them with twice as many. I mean I could sort of understand it if they were planning on heavily automating them to allow for a crew a good b it smaller then what a Collins requires. But in my admittedly extremely brief research the specs cited have them with roughly comparablely sized crews as the Collins.

So theyre planning on spending billions to double the sub force when they know they're probably only going to be able to man the same numbers of boats as the Collins.
More boats are the ambition of the RAN. However as I have pointed out, the real limiter on the deployment of more boats is the crew, not the number of boats.
 

McPherson

Banned
Still not directly relevant. Australia is in a unique situation, we are not facing the Russians and the Chinese are less of a threat to us than you appear to believe. America fights it's own battles with them as far as I am concerned. America needs an enemy to justify its Military-Industrial machine.

News about Chinese Hackers Attacking Australia

I find it curious that certain rogue regimes do not limit their attacks to just the United States, but seek through extortion and economic blackmail to coerce every democracy through intimidation and economic terrorism.

Might want to think about that one, the next time one sees a power grid or hydro-system shut down and "ransomed" by a rogue "military owned corporation", or "criminal element" that is "disavowed" by a "sitting government" as being "not sanctioned".

And the funny thing, is that even the rogue regimes complain about it.

Russia Is Angry That China Stole and Copied Its Jet ...

 
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News about Chinese Hackers Attacking Australia

I find it curious that certain rogue regimes do not limit their attacks to just the United States, but seek through extortion and economic blackmail to coerce every democracy through intimidation and economic terrorism.

Might want to think about that one, the next time one sees a power grid or hydro-system shut down and "ransomed" by a rogue "military corporation, or "criminal element" that is "disavowed" by a "sitting government" as being "not sanctioned".
Our systems are not as automated needlessly as are it appears American systems are. Our computer systems are protected by firewalls and other such devices. China can attack as much as they like, they will only be able to gain purchase on the inadequately protected systems usually owned by private corporations or individuals. I advise all my clients to stay well away from Windoze machines. They are difficult to secure and usually riddled with security "features" which are easily exploited. If they have serious computer systems they have Unix/Linux ones.
 

McPherson

Banned
Our systems are not as automated needlessly as are it appears American systems are. Our computer systems are protected by firewalls and other such devices. China can attack as much as they like, they will only be able to gain purchase on the inadequately protected systems usually owned by private corporations or individuals. I advise all my clients to stay well away from Windoze machines. They are difficult to secure and usually riddled with security "features" which are easily exploited. If they have serious computer systems they have Unix/Linux ones.
Apparently...


Chinese hackers are attacking Australian law firms that hold sensitive commercial information and have successfully hacked a research body, an industry specialist has warned.

Key points:

  • Experts say threat of cyber espionage in the commercial world is high
  • An Australian research and development body was targeted by Chinese hackers
  • The origin of Chinese hackers remains unclear
The Chinese espionage group known as the Codoso team or APT-19 has been causing havoc internationally but is turning its attention to Australia.

The Australian Crime Commission's former cyber security manager, Tim Wellsmore, said any information obtained would likely be passed to Chinese companies.

Law firms hold confidential information that could give the companies inside knowledge ahead of business negotiations, mergers and acquisitions.

In some cases, these firms are seen as weak links as they have not taken cyber security as seriously as some of their clients.

Mr Wellsmore, who is now Director of Asia/Pacific Threat Intelligence for private security firm FireEye, said APT-19's origins remained unclear.

"Sometimes it is tricky to understand whether they are sitting there in uniforms working directly for the Chinese Government, or if they are sponsored and given resources but operate outside the Government hierarchy," he told the ABC.
...it needs to b e spelled out. Some aspects, such as lines of credit, inter-corporate negotiations and international trade deals are STRATEGIC problems that can affect a nation's survival and economic well being.

Example. Chinese operations against Canada in the 2000s had driven a wedge between Ottawa and Washington. The long term Chinese end-goal was to deny the US access to Canadian sources of rare earths, petroleum products and WATER and to shared power grid distribution and vice versa and substitute Chinese direct influence and OWNERSHIP. The effort was only thwarted with hard feelings and at great cost to both nations. The damage was done, and it will be decades before the trust that used to be there will be repaired.
 
More boats are the ambition of the RAN. However as I have pointed out, the real limiter on the deployment of more boats is the crew, not the number of boats.
Right and I agree to you. Just seems odd they know they cant man six boats but are planning on doubling the number of hulls. Seems like if you were set on 12 you'd more heavily automate them. Or realize you cant man that many and instead go for a smaller number that quality and capability wise are as good as possible.
 

McPherson

Banned
Right and I agree to you. Just seems odd they know they cant man six boats but are planning on doubling the number of hulls. Seems like if you were set on 12 you'd more heavily automate them. Or realize you cant man that many and instead go for a smaller number that quality and capability wise are as good as possible.

12 x 2 x 60 = 1440 "squids".

Base population= 40,000,000 by time of date in service.

The bottleneck is SALARY. Got to pay them to keep them.
 
Apparently...



...it needs to b e spelled out. Some aspects, such as lines of credit, inter-corporate negotiations and international trade deals are STRATEGIC problems that can affect a nation's survival and economic well being.

Example. Chinese operations against Canada in the 2000s had driven a wedge between Ottawa and Washington. The long term Chinese end-goal was to deny the US access to Canadian sources of rare earths, petroleum products and WATER and to shared power grid distribution and vice versa and substitute Chinese direct influence and OWNERSHIP. The effort was only thwarted with hard feelings and at great cost to both nations. The damage was done, and it will be decades before the trust that used to be there will be repaired.
China can try. Australia is unique in that we can cut China or anybody else off if we want to. We are an island and can use that to our advantage. It is currently working quite well as far as the Pandemic is concerned. We presently only have a few hundred infected. Compare that to the lax overseas nations in their handling of the virus.
 

Riain

Banned
IIUC the RAN can man 3 Collins class, the long pole in the tent in a strategic emergency isn't crews, its boats. In an emergency requiring mobilisation and possibly conscription people will be found to stretch the existing 3 crews out to 4 or 5 readily enough with a year notice.
 
IIUC the RAN can man 3 Collins class, the long pole in the tent in a strategic emergency isn't crews, its boats. In an emergency requiring mobilisation and possibly conscription people will be found to stretch the existing 3 crews out to 4 or 5 readily enough with a year notice.
Conscription? You do realise how long it takes to train a submariner? You also realise I hope that short of an actual invasion of Australia, conscription is a no-no, ever since Vietnam for Australian Governments...
 

McPherson

Banned
China can try. Australia is unique in that we can cut China or anybody else off if we want to. We are an island and can use that to our advantage. It is currently working quite well as far as the Pandemic is concerned. We presently only have a few hundred infected. Compare that to the lax overseas nations in their handling of the virus.
1. They, the Chinese, are succeeding.
2. As for a few hundred... covid cases, the movement in the data is interesting. Climate and internal population clustering are factors, but I see no special immunity for Australia implied.

I do see data that Australia is no more invulnerable to hacking, economic extortion or political manipulation than Germany or Canada, so the claims made are not supported by the facts reported.
1. Domestic hackers and cyberattacks in Australia
2. List of Data Breaches and Cyber Attacks in Australia 2018-2021
3. Australia is experiencing the 'three Ds' of cyber crime ...

So the telephone exchanges are attacked, the hydro system is hacked and the government is whacked? How is Australia actually doing? NTG.
 
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Riain

Banned
Conscription? You do realise how long it takes to train a submariner? You also realise I hope that short of an actual invasion of Australia, conscription is a no-no, ever since Vietnam for Australian Governments...

We're not looking at getting 12 submarines to sneak around hills in Afghanistan, we're talking about stealth fighters and super/hypersonic missiles in the South China Sea. In that scenario conscription might not be the anathema that it has been for the last 50 years of no/low threat strategic environment.

"A" submariner? The Captain, SCNO, XO or the junior sailor all take different times to train. The current raise-train-sustain in peacetime RAN sustains 3 crews, a training establishment staffed by active RAN submariners, Submarine SPOs and Projects in CASG staffed with active submariners. There is a hell of a lot of slack in this system when considering active crew up for promotion, experienced submariners in the surface fleet, reservists, Defence APS and new recruits to crew another submarine or two, staff the training establishments and the CASG organisations if the government decided there was enough danger to instigate a rapid expansion.
 
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