While we all know the 3rd Reich was hardly the paradigm of Germanic/Fascist efficiency that the myth claimed it was, how much then was it's war effort impeded by chaotic administration? How much did the system of overlapping military responsibilities and contradictory economic policies harm the German war effort? How much would the war have been prolonged, baring nukes, if Nazi Germany was as efficient as the myth of "Germanic efficiency" held it to be?
How much was Nazi Germany's war effort impeded by it's administration?
- Thread starter Whiteshore
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- efficiency nazi war effort ww2
Deleted member 1487
Enormously so. The "Germany and the Second World War" series describes the pre-war German rearmament efforts as 'organized chaos'. There were repeated and enormous series of cock-ups in 1939-41, which led to the firing/replacement of Udet and to a degree Goering too, which led to the rise of Milch and Speer to sort things out. Tooze tries to push the thesis that the German economy was constrained only by raw materials and all increases in production only came from experience making weapons, which neglects the very real failures of the Nazi administration pre-war through 1942 and how much things improved far beyond just simple extra raw material inputs and increased production facilities.
In terms of major waste just see the Wunderwaffen/Napkinwaffen issues. In terms of research scaring away many of the best scientists in say the theoretical physics field was a massive blow to the war effort, while research was heavily funded, but very poorly administered. I read a 100 page report from 1948 by the US Army Corps of Engineers which detailed all the failings of German R&D, pointing out it's successes too, and making a lot of recommendations about what it could have done better, ultimately concluding that depending on the field the German scientific/engineering establishment produced, depending on specific field, 10-50% of what it could have. Germanic efficiency did not apply when Nazi bureaucracy ran the system. Tooze has written other books and makes the case that actually Weimar had one of the most innovative bureaucracies in the world in the interwar period, which the Nazis promptly dismantled.
In terms of major waste just see the Wunderwaffen/Napkinwaffen issues. In terms of research scaring away many of the best scientists in say the theoretical physics field was a massive blow to the war effort, while research was heavily funded, but very poorly administered. I read a 100 page report from 1948 by the US Army Corps of Engineers which detailed all the failings of German R&D, pointing out it's successes too, and making a lot of recommendations about what it could have done better, ultimately concluding that depending on the field the German scientific/engineering establishment produced, depending on specific field, 10-50% of what it could have. Germanic efficiency did not apply when Nazi bureaucracy ran the system. Tooze has written other books and makes the case that actually Weimar had one of the most innovative bureaucracies in the world in the interwar period, which the Nazis promptly dismantled.
counterpoint
Banned
The problems of the Nazi regime were ultimately political, and even a much more efficient Nazi regime still had no chance if the politics remained unchanged.
In a way I would just look at Germany in WWI, which was much better run from an efficiency standpoint. They ended up fighting the whole world due to the diplomatic incompetence of the Kaiser. And if the Kaiser had the same political ambitions of a Hitler even winning in France wouldn't have mattered much, just as it didn't matter to Hitler.
Germany was human capital rich and natural resource poor. It continually tried to solve this problem militarily. Whether challenging Britain and sea (WW1) or Operation Barbarossa. Germany squeezed out just about everything it could from its native resources in WWI and it wasn't enough. Hindenburg and Ludendorff tried to squeeze out more in 1917 and bunked it all up. The Nazi's just took that same logic and turned it into farce.
In a way I would just look at Germany in WWI, which was much better run from an efficiency standpoint. They ended up fighting the whole world due to the diplomatic incompetence of the Kaiser. And if the Kaiser had the same political ambitions of a Hitler even winning in France wouldn't have mattered much, just as it didn't matter to Hitler.
Germany was human capital rich and natural resource poor. It continually tried to solve this problem militarily. Whether challenging Britain and sea (WW1) or Operation Barbarossa. Germany squeezed out just about everything it could from its native resources in WWI and it wasn't enough. Hindenburg and Ludendorff tried to squeeze out more in 1917 and bunked it all up. The Nazi's just took that same logic and turned it into farce.
A particularly notorious example of which was the post office having a civilian nuclear program (headed by one Manfred von Ardenne)!
Deleted member 1487
Eh no, we've addressed that on this forum many times. The German Reichspost funded all sorts of physics research for civilian purposes and funded an independent research project that was involved in civilian energy research.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichspostministerium
It's also worth noting that some of the scientists involved in the Post Office funded research actually went on to work for the Soviets in building their bomb. Not exactly Postman Pat.
samcster94
Banned
The "kill the Jews" element Hitler did have but the Kaiser(an anti-Semite himself) did not have didn't help things.
From what I've read, there were some 'total stupids', like the railway network ordered to prioritise logistics for the extermination camps over supplying the Russian Front...
The V weapons were another 'stupid'. Those many V1s were a great nuisance, but would not win the war. The V2s, IIRC, killed more slave workers building their factories and working there than they did falling on London and, later, Antwerp. Worse, the V2's modest payload was only worthwhile if CBW or nuclear. H knew the RAF would respond in kind to the former, and the latter was always a decade away...
Let's not discuss V3 super-gun logic and logistics beyond a grim head-shake...
Super-tanks ? Yeah, right. Mind you, designing something, anything, Herr H might consider, 'Ooh, Shiny !' was a good way to avoid the Russian Front...
FWIW, the US built several prototype 'super tanks', really 'limited traverse tank-destroyers / assault guns', for the invasion of Japan. They were intended to shrug off beach defences, blow holes through the barriers. Turned out they weren't needed...
The V weapons were another 'stupid'. Those many V1s were a great nuisance, but would not win the war. The V2s, IIRC, killed more slave workers building their factories and working there than they did falling on London and, later, Antwerp. Worse, the V2's modest payload was only worthwhile if CBW or nuclear. H knew the RAF would respond in kind to the former, and the latter was always a decade away...
Let's not discuss V3 super-gun logic and logistics beyond a grim head-shake...
Super-tanks ? Yeah, right. Mind you, designing something, anything, Herr H might consider, 'Ooh, Shiny !' was a good way to avoid the Russian Front...
FWIW, the US built several prototype 'super tanks', really 'limited traverse tank-destroyers / assault guns', for the invasion of Japan. They were intended to shrug off beach defences, blow holes through the barriers. Turned out they weren't needed...
I would argue an efficient regime would no longer be Nazi. The whole power structure depended on subordinates being too busy competing for resources and prestige to challenge their superiors. An efficient department would be an imediate threat.
Also remember that what we see as unproductive actions like prioritising the Holocaust or production of vengeance weapons was perfectly logical from their point of view.
Winning the war was less important than killing undesirables and purifying the Germans race.
Also remember that what we see as unproductive actions like prioritising the Holocaust or production of vengeance weapons was perfectly logical from their point of view.
Winning the war was less important than killing undesirables and purifying the Germans race.
According to Hitler it was the other way around. The generals were cowards and the scum of the German people and thwarted him at every turn. Years at the military academy learning to hold a knife and fork. He should have liquidated the generals like Stalin.
Asami
Banned
The Wehrmacht was already in trouble enough as it was. Purge the few generals that were competent and capable of doing their job, and Nazi Germany probably would've gotten spanked by Summer 1942 or 1943, instead of May 1945.
And were overkill anyway considering Japanese tanks can best be described as worthless and obsolete.
I was just referencing the Downfall rant.
But Hitler did apparently blame everyone except himself.
counterpoint
Banned
By the time they are prioritizing vengeance weapons and death camps it probably was the most efficient way to achieve Nazi political objectives. The war was lost. All they could do at that point was bring the whole world down with them, which was stated as their goal many times.
Still, I would not want to be in a Japanese tank if I saw such a thing.