How much time Poland could have resisted if the Soviets didn't backstab in 39?

The title says it all: somehow (a little ASB), Stalin decided to not follow the non-aggression pact with Germany and not invade Poland, and Germany had to fully invade the country.

This is not why the Soviets wouldn't invade, but how much time the Poles could resist only against Germany (and Slovakia).
 
Only a few days. The Germans had already crossed what was to be the line between Soviet, and German forces. What was left was the Battle for Warsaw which had nothing to do with the Soviets. Without the Soviet intervention the Poles would've had a few more days to get more men into Romania to eventually join the Free Polish Forces. The long-term effect would be the Nazi occupation of Eastern Poland, rather than the Soviet purge of the Polish elite, and the eventual creation of the Communist Polish Army that fought besides the Soviets. The start line for Barbarossa would be further east, putting more pressure on the Soviets in 1941.
 
The start line for Barbarossa would be further east, putting more pressure on the Soviets in 1941.
Which strikes me as a more than fair trade for the Soviet position having a lot more moral integrity among the Western allies.

OP explicitly puts speculation as to the reason the Kremlin does not take Hitler's deal out of bounds, which is a bit unfortunate as exactly how the war plays out depends a lot on the details of what sort of decisions are made in Moscow, by what kind of leadership. If we assume Stalin remains in power, and hews as close to his OTL decisions and mentality as is consistent with not taking the Pact deal, then overall not much is improved morally, and indeed the USSR is in an objectively worse position. We have to remember that not only the territorial status of eastern Poland (including a lot of territory annexed to Belarus outright OTL) but the three Baltic states south of the Baltic and Finland are also in play. OTL, the Pact included giving Stalin a free hand with Hitler's blessing in this region, and Stalin of course eventually occupied and annexed the three southern nations into the USSR--only to lose them when Barbarossa overran the Red Army there too. Finland of course resisted, and gave the Red Army enough of a headache that their ultimate capitulation was on harsh but bearable terms leaving the nation independent--and as things turned out, joining in Hitler's Drang nach Osten schemes.

If there is no apparent thaw in Reich-Soviet relations, and Stalin knows any move he makes in any of the four Baltic states could be the pretext Hitler is waiting for to swoop in as the ally and protector of these governments, will he keep hands off all four? And if the Germans are free to plot and scheme with these anti-Communist governments to augment their strike against the new Reich border with the USSR--presumably on the far-east flung former international border with Poland, and not farther west, will they gain such advantages, between their more easterly position and perhaps using the four Baltic nations' territory to strike immediately at pre-war Soviet borders directly, that they can break the Red Army completely and triumph in the east?

I have my doubts about the latter, even assuming that 1) the small Baltic regimes even dare to materially assist Hitler openly and 2) that the Soviet forces are in exactly the same disarray as they were OTL.

Now if there is no Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, a lot of the details of how the Soviet Union was run between the OTL date it became apparent and was announced to the Soviet peoples, and the launching of Barbarossa, would be quite different. The Soviets have every reason to expect Hitler will be attacking them sooner or later, consistent with his long stated agenda and with the Reich's policy, uncontradicted until the Germans approached the Russians in 1939 OTL and indefinitely after that here as well, to be on a crusade to the death against Bolshevism. OTL the Pact included some working agreements with the Reich, including asking the Soviet government to round up and remand various people who had taken refuge from Hitler in the USSR to Gestapo custody--and Stalin did that. Naturally all those people won't be betrayed in this fashion if relations remain frozen. I am certainly aware from some classes I took studying this era in the USSR that Soviet citizens generally loyal to the Communist regime were deeply shocked and dismayed at this sudden friendship with Hitler--all that demoralization would be sidestepped.

A more knotty question is whether the Red Army and other Soviet military forces would undergo the devastating political purges they did not long before Hitler did attack OTL. On one hand, if the old guard Stalin eliminated remains in charge and the military ranks are not in disarray from this coup, perhaps the Red Army forces would be better coordinated and respond more capably, offsetting any advantage Hitler gets from a more easterly strike. OTOH, while I don't doubt the purge mainly killed or otherwise removed mostly people who were loyal to the Soviet regime on the whole, it is entirely possible Stalin knew what he was doing regarding their uncertain support for him personally, and that while fending off the Wehrmacht more effectively on the front, its commanders might after all also carry out a coup removing Stalin from power. And while it is abundantly clear the Red Army was badly shaken up and the politically favored crop of new officers was not very competent and largely shaken out over time, the ones who did not buckle down and shake down to be more effective anyway, in favor of more pragmatically competent commanders, is it so clear that the unpurged officers would be all that more effective against Hitler's strike when push comes to shove?

Two other major considerations:

1) another aspect of the OTL Pact was that the USSR agreed to supply the Reich with various material goods. Without a Pact Hitler can't use those imports toward victory against France and the other nations of continental western Europe, nor of course then stockpile them for Barbarossa.

2) it is certainly clear that Stalin was fooled into thinking either that the Reich would never attack, or more likely that at any rate they could not attack until the conflict with all Western allies, including Britain, was settled. This false confidence that the time for open conflict was not yet at hand when it actually was surely contributed to the Red Army's initial ineffectiveness. In an ATL where no Pact is offered, Stalin would have little choice but to either plan on a preemptive strike of his own, or prepare Soviet defenses for an onslaught. OTL it seems he fell between stools, and used the farther western positions he got in Poland from the Pact to prepare for an eventual first strike of his own, which was not ready, and was badly laid out to enable an effective defense. In the ATL I think caution would prevail and rather than sending the Red Army on adventures to grab what he could get with Hitler's connivance, it would be deployed to defend the borders and probably be considerably more effective at that task that it proved to be OTL in the summer of 1941.

In that case, with the USSR's track record untarnished by the seizure of the Baltics and the attempted conquest of Finland--well, lacking the experience of poor performance in Finland is a mixed bag for everyone; OTL foreign observers downgraded their estimates of Red Army capabilities based on the black eye the Finns were giving them--without this bitter experience probably the Red Army is not quite as prepared for invasion as they think they are, but vice versa foreign observers have less reason to underestimate them. But anyway on the moral plane--whether or not the three small Baltic republics do lend themselves secretly in advance to Hitler's schemes, the Finnish state is not nearly so likely to openly aid the Reich. Certainly some factions, I would guess the large majority, of Finns are not fond of the Soviet regime, not trusting it and having reason to fear its size and greed, but a minority of Finns are sympathetic or outright Reds themselves, and while they might not be much represented in the government, they are in a position to cry foul. OtL the Winter War turned Finland into a solidly anti-Soviet nation cooperating with Hitler with a clear conscience; if there is no Winter War, Finland will I think remain neutral.

And worldwide, both committed Communists and those with some sympathy or at least tolerance of their radicalism and slavish devotion to the Moscow Party Line will be spared the whiplash of being told that all of a sudden they believed in the Third Reich and were against the French and British governments, only to turn back again to their former anti-fascism when Hitler showed his hand in 1941. Liberal regimes will be spared the spectacle of Stalin's utter cynicism in the Pact interim.

Call me crazy but I think moral integrity counts for something. I believe then that in this sort of defensive USSR scenario, any advantage the Reich gets by gaining more eastern territory and possibly being able to use the three southern Baltic republics as staging grounds as well are overall offset by a more solid defense of the USSR at its interwar borders, and that while I don't doubt the Red Army will lose considerable ground and have a steep learning curve to become more effective, they will not overall wind up worse than OTL, might wind up with the German first strike stalling farther west despite their more easterly starting point, and that when the Soviets do halt the advances and then start to push back, they will do so earlier, farther west, and come back stronger than OTL.

And this is before trying to factor in how much weaker the Reich is, at each stage of the game, without the tribute the Pact extorted from Stalin--not to mention the need to station more force on his eastern borders being unsure Stalin would not launch a preemptive strike of his own.

The OP question then shines a harsh spotlight on Hitler's motives to contradict himself on a massive scale and offer what appeared to be genuine and permanent cooperation with the USSR. OTL the Germans in general and Hitler in particular benefited overall from it, and so it is hard to figure why this deception is not attempted in the ATL too. (I have little doubt that, offered such a deal, Stalin would take it, so the ball is in Hitler's court).
 
The Soviets have every reason to expect Hitler will be attacking them sooner or later, consistent with his long stated agenda and with the Reich's policy, uncontradicted until the Germans approached the Russians in 1939 OTL and indefinitely after that here as well, to be on a crusade to the death against Bolshevism.
Soviets expected Hitler to attack them OTL as well. Nobody really thought that Nazis have no aggression in the works against USSR. The point of contention was will Hitler attack before dealing with British or not. And any resolution of Polish question doesn't change that calculation at all.
A more knotty question is whether the Red Army and other Soviet military forces would undergo the devastating political purges they did not long before Hitler did attack OTL.
There was no political purge of any sort in the Red Army before the invasion. What happened was removal of several high ranking Air Force commanders for the combined reason of dismal state of training in the Air Force and their apparent inability to do anything about German recon flights over USSR.
1) another aspect of the OTL Pact was that the USSR agreed to supply the Reich with various material goods. Without a Pact Hitler can't use those imports toward victory against France and the other nations of continental western Europe, nor of course then stockpile them for Barbarossa.
And USSR will not get industrial goods from the Germany including turret ring cutting tools that allowed them to expand T-34 production to Stalingrad. And Bismark will go into her voyage with full set of anti-air fire directors that could effect that lucky Swordfish strike on her. And so on and on. USSR-German trade benefited both sides and it is very much unclear who benefitted more even with accounting for German dishonest dealing on it.

In an ATL where no Pact is offered, Stalin would have little choice but to either plan on a preemptive strike of his own, or prepare Soviet defenses for an onslaught. OTL it seems he fell between stools, and used the farther western positions he got in Poland from the Pact to prepare for an eventual first strike of his own, which was not ready, and was badly laid out to enable an effective defense.
There is literally zero indication that OTL USSR was planning any sort of offensive action against Germany in any predictable future. Soviet posture and planning was entirely defensive and any notion of pre-emptive strike was limited to staff exercises always in combination with pre-empting imminent German attack. But this exercises never left theoretical stages and actual planning for Special military districts never included such plans.
In that case, with the USSR's track record untarnished by the seizure of the Baltics and the attempted conquest of Finland
Lack of agreement with Hitler actually increases chances of USSR acting against Baltic states and Finland because of the unresolved security issues. In fact full occupation and annexation of Baltic states was never planned OTL and happened after Soviets discovered ongoing talks between Lithuanian leadership and Germany. In absence of MRP, both Baltic states and Finland would go to the same conclusions that Germany now is their sole potential ally against USSR with France and Britain being entirely out of the picture (as UK had no practical way to assist any of them) which would force USSR to do the same thing as it did OTL. Baltic states would be invaded as well as Finland. There was no way for the USSR to rely on neutrality because Nazi demonstrated quite clearly that Germany doesn't care about neutrality.
the Finnish state is not nearly so likely to openly aid the Reich.
Finland was dependent on Germany for the food supplies by 1940 as Nazis controlled sole entrance to the Baltic sea. And of course there is an example of Norway of what happens to the countries who do not want to assist to the German war effort.

So nah. the only real better alternative for the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact for the USSR is similar pact with UK and France. And such pact was in the works but France and Britain refused to commit to it preferring to use the fact of the ongoing talks to put pressure on Germany. As the result Stalin decided to deal with Hitler instead.
 
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There was no political purge of any sort in the Red Army before the invasion. What happened was removal of several high ranking Air Force commanders for the combined reason of dismal state of training in the Air Force and their apparent inability to do anything about German recon flights over USSR.
I presume you mean after the great purge, but before Barbarossa?

And USSR will not get industrial goods from the Germany including turret ring cutting tools that allowed them to expand T-34 production to Stalingrad. And Bismark will go into her voyage with full set of anti-air fire directors that could effect that lucky Swordfish strike on her. And so on and on. USSR-German trade benefited both sides and it is very much unclear who benefitted more even with accounting for German dishonest dealing on it.
Your right about the T-34 machine tools. I didn't know the Bismarck was missing anti-aircraft fire directors. The Germans wouldn't have given the Soviets samples of their fighter aircraft, including the HE-100 which helped them improve some of their own fighters. They also wouldn't have given them the Seidlitz, the Kreigsmarine could've used another heavy cruiser.

Lack of agreement with Hitler actually increases chances of USSR acting against Baltic states and Finland because of the unresolved security issues. In fact full occupation and annexation of Baltic states was never planned OTL and happened after Soviets discovered ongoing talks between Lithuanian leadership and Germany. In absence of MRP, both Baltic states and Finland would go to the same conclusions that Germany now is their sole potential ally against USSR with France and Britain being entirely out of the picture (as UK had no practical way to assist any of them) which would force USSR to do the same thing as it did OTL. Baltic states would be invaded as well as Finland. There was no way for the USSR to rely on neutrality because Nazi demonstrated quite clearly that Germany doesn't care about neutrality.
Good assessment. Lithuania might be a separate case. The Soviets were very sensitive to the idea of invading Lithuania until they got an understanding with the Germans that it was ok. One open question about Lithuania would if she would have been granted Vilnius, or if that would have to wait till after the war, assuming the Soviets could take it from the Poles.
 
I presume you mean after the great purge, but before Barbarossa?
Obviously, as Great Purge happened before discussed point of divergence.

Your right about the T-34 machine tools. I didn't know the Bismarck was missing anti-aircraft fire directors.
AFAIR, Lutzow missed anti-air fire directors at the time of transfer to USSR, so Germans had to send one set that was planned to be used to upgrade Bismarck AA defenses.
 

Garrison

Donor
I disagree. Organized Polish resistance had more or less already collapsed by the time the Soviets invaded, with only a few exceptions in places like Warsaw.
And Warsaw was besieged and fell only a few days after the Soviets invaded, I doubt it could have led out any longer even if the Soviets stayed out. Even if the Soviets didn't actually invade I suspect they would still have taken the territory they were promised under the M-R Pact.
 
Obviously, as Great Purge happened before discussed point of divergence.


AFAIR, Lutzow missed anti-air fire directors at the time of transfer to USSR, so Germans had to send one set that was planned to be used to upgrade Bismarck AA defenses.
It was Lutzow they gave to the Soviets not the Seidlitz? My mistake.
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
I disagree. Organized Polish resistance had more or less already collapsed by the time the Soviets invaded, with only a few exceptions in places like Warsaw.
Just finished Forczyk's Case White and while it dispelled some myths about the campaign being a German kerb-stomp, the Polish high command was extremely incompetent, with some good experienced leaders being ignored for political reasons, and a decision to defend all Polish territory (which did have some valid excuses) meant that each Polish army could effectively be defeated in detail. I'm with you - one or two weeks delay perhaps, the Romanian Bridgehead might last longer and more Poles will make it to the West.
 
If Soviets refuse to do their part then Germans would implement plan B and would likely carve Ukrainian puppet state out of southwestern Polish voivodeships.


Just before the start of World War II, the Germans suspended the organization of the anti-Polish OUN uprising, due to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact . The USSR did not want any actions by the Ukrainians in the area that was in its "zone of interests", and the Third Reich did not want to irritate relations with the new ally. In addition, on the night of September 1-2, 1939, the Polish police detained several thousand Ukrainians suspected of being associated with nationalist organizations as part of the arrests planned in the event of the outbreak of war [8] .

In view of the USSR's reluctance with the promised promise of aggression against Poland, the leadership of the Third Reich considered on September 12 a plan to launch an anti-Polish rebellion with the OUN forces, which, according to Adolf Hitler's plan, was to lead to a bloody Polish counteraction and ultimately to the murder of Polish landed gentry by Ukrainian hands in the Polish-Ukrainian civil war . On September 15, Wilhelm Canaris gave Andriy Melnyk conditional permission to start an anti-Polish uprising. On September 17, when the USSR attacked Poland , the German consent ceased to be valid.

According to Ryszard Torzecki , referring to undocumented claims of historian Petr Mirczuk [9] associated with the OUN , in September 1939 the so-called The National Provid (National Board) of the OUN under the leadership of Lew Rebet refused to carry out the order of the foreign board of the OUN (under the direction of A. Melnyk) to initiate an anti-Polish uprising as a diversion in favor of Germany . Lew Rebet believed that in the face of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact , this would be an action only in the interest of the USSR , which he considered the main enemy of Ukraine [10] [11] . Grzegorz Motyka and Krzysztof Ładadoubt the possibility of the OUN refusing to launch an anti-Polish rebellion; in their opinion, the uprising was called off by the Germans themselves due to the Red Army entering the borders of the Second Polish Republic [12] [13] .
 
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