How Much Of China Can Be Effectively Colonized?

Could we see greater european efforts to integrate the Chinese into the european colonial societies? in india, Britain showed itself as a unifier but played natives off each other. TTL, since no one power is gonna have that much and China has a longer history of unity than India, it would likely be in the colonizer's interest to distinguish their chinese subjects from native ruled china or the slivers of china others rule. Like, could a French China based in the south emphasise the Yue dialect while preaching a lot of legalism, while England dominates the east and tries to anglicise china?
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where I got the Yue Dialect idea
 
China indeed have experience more than once period of disunity. But the cause of their disunity is not because of their deference, but because of their political elite.
 
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Could we see greater european efforts to integrate the Chinese into the european colonial societies? in india, Britain showed itself as a unifier but played natives off each other. TTL, since no one power is gonna have that much and China has a longer history of unity than India, it would likely be in the colonizer's interest to distinguish their chinese subjects from native ruled china or the slivers of china others rule. Like, could a French China based in the south emphasise the Yue dialect while preaching a lot of legalism, while England dominates the east and tries to anglicise china?
View attachment 548871
where I got the Yue Dialect idea
Won't work, since the Chinese written language is all the same, so people will be able to communicate with each other across intra and inter colonial borders.
 

RousseauX

Donor
All of it (though that would require that we either have one colonial power, or that the competing colonial powers come to some sort of arrangement).

Then the question becomes, how long can they keep China colonized? Running a colonial empire is a very expensive undertaking (unless we're talking about a name in only colonization) so there has to be an economic rationale for doing so (generally, most colonies exist for money or settlers (and settlers aren't really possible in China), not "we did it for the lulz)).
Probably until the mid-20th century
 

RousseauX

Donor
while England dominates the east and tries to anglicise china?
It's unlikely for Europeans to emphasize local dialects, however, it is absolutely going to try to use English/French etc for administrative purposes. If for no other reason than to allow w/e Chinese officials they co-opt to communicate with their colonial rulers. It is unlikely to filter down to the general population until whenever widespread public eduacation becomes available after the colonizers had being defeated though.

English and French colonies both have a legacy of English/French language. India is the obvious example. I would't be surprised if English becomes a sort of semi-official language in post-colonial China simply because a large portion of the political elite will understand it. And nationalist individuals rebelling against colonial rule ironically enough are often segments of the westernized political elites.

Again India is the obvious example: Ghandi went to King's college, Nehru went to Trinity college. English is an official language in india today. It is very likely which ever Chinese nationalist movement will be led by some western eduacated segment of the political elites.
 
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The inland provinces could become princely states. Also Christianized China?
Probably not: the British failed to do so in India. There's too many Chinese and way too ingrained tradition in China for it to be easily christianized. The places European did christianize in this era tended to be through genocide and destruction of large portions of the existing society.
Judging by the success of Christianity in China IOTL even without overt colonization, and with persecution by various governments, I think it could do quite well. In South Korea, 30% of the population are Christians. I don't think quite that many Chinese would convert, but going by the 1900 Chinese population, even 10% would mean 40-50 million people claimed for God's kingdom.
 

xsampa

Banned
It's unlikely for Europeans to emphasize local dialects, however, it is absolutely going to try to use English/French etc for administrative purposes. If for no other reason than to allow w/e Chinese officials they co-opt to communicate with their colonial rulers. It is unlikely to filter down to the general population until whenever widespread public eduacation becomes available after the colonizers had being defeated though.

English and French colonies both have a legacy of English/French language. India is the obvious example. I would't be surprised if English becomes a sort of semi-official language in post-colonial China simply because a large portion of the political elite will understand it. And nationalist individuals rebelling against colonial rule ironically enough are often segments of the westernized political elites.

Again India is the obvious example: Ghandi went to King's college, Nehru went to Trinity college. English is an official language in india today. It is very likely which ever Chinese nationalist movement will be led by some western eduacated segment of the political elites.
One factor for English as an official language in India is that the southern provinces didn’t want the dominance of Hindi. This may occur in a post-British China with more linguistic consciousness in the south but I don’t know. Iraq and Syria were colonized yet the most common language is Arabic by far
 

RousseauX

Donor
Judging by the success of Christianity in China IOTL even without overt colonization, and with persecution by various governments, I think it could do quite well. In South Korea, 30% of the population are Christians. I don't think quite that many Chinese would convert, but going by the 1900 Chinese population, even 10% would mean 40-50 million people claimed for God's kingdom.
Korea is a good counterexample, but I do not believe Christianity to have being very successful in China otl. Going by memory, even the Taiping failed to convert more than a small percentage of the population. It's also quite possible that there is a reaction against Christianity whenever the age of nationalism and decolonization (there certainly was otl) pops up, especially if they are a minority.
 
Unless a single European power colonizes *all* of China, or at least the large majority of it, then there's no reason for post-colonial China to retain the colonizer's language at any official level. Vietnam and Indonesia have entirely abandoned their former colonizers' languages.
 

RousseauX

Donor
One factor for English as an official language in India is that the southern provinces didn’t want the dominance of Hindi. This may occur in a post-British China with more linguistic consciousness in the south but I don’t know. Iraq and Syria were colonized yet the most common language is Arabic by far
What about Lebanon?
 
Unless a single European power colonizes *all* of China, or at least the large majority of it, then there's no reason for post-colonial China to retain the colonizer's language at any official level. Vietnam and Indonesia have entirely abandoned their former colonizers' languages.

On the other hand, Vietnam kept the writing system based on the Latin alphabet their French rulers supported in Vietnam instead of switching back to the one they used before France conquered their lands.
 
On the other hand, Vietnam kept the writing system based on the Latin alphabet their French rulers supported in Vietnam instead of switching back to the one they used before France conquered their lands.
The Romanization of Vietnamese was successful since the Vietnamese nationalists appropriated it to promote mass literacy. IOTL, some Chinese nationalists also promoted Romanization, but no system was able to gain dominance without the support of a central government. It's probable that ITTL, European powers will promote their various Romanization scripts, but - unless one European power colonized all or the large majority of China - the Chinese nationalists would view them as an attempt to divide the Chinese nation and reject them in response.
 
Theoretically, all of it, but the question is, how long can the Europeans hold on to it, and what is the nature of these colonies. Settler colonies are out of the question, as India showed, but simply administering an entirely native population isn't out of the question. Of course, the problem is going to be the willpower and resources of the Europeans, which is a tad hard to come by. The only people who could feasibly hold large sections of China for any extended period of time are the British and Russians, and even they didn't have much of a stomach to absorb the entirety of it. And then there's the Japanese, who will be genuinely jittered at a Scramble for China, but at the same time, they're by far in the best position to colonize large parts of China, if only because they're nearby.

Ultimately, though, I can't see any foreign power being able to hold significant parts of China for more than half a century. It'll be a massive drain of resources to bring it up to speed enough to exploit its labour and natural resources. And given how much resentment they've already whipped up just by manhandling the Qing into letting them run amok in their empire, I feel they're going to have a hard time on this one. The coastal ports they took IOTL was really the most realistic option, and Hong Kong and Macau did manage to stay in European hands until the tail end of the 20th Century.

It's unlikely for Europeans to emphasize local dialects, however, it is absolutely going to try to use English/French etc for administrative purposes. If for no other reason than to allow w/e Chinese officials they co-opt to communicate with their colonial rulers. It is unlikely to filter down to the general population until whenever widespread public eduacation becomes available after the colonizers had being defeated though.

English and French colonies both have a legacy of English/French language. India is the obvious example. I would't be surprised if English becomes a sort of semi-official language in post-colonial China simply because a large portion of the political elite will understand it. And nationalist individuals rebelling against colonial rule ironically enough are often segments of the westernized political elites.

Again India is the obvious example: Ghandi went to King's college, Nehru went to Trinity college. English is an official language in india today. It is very likely which ever Chinese nationalist movement will be led by some western eduacated segment of the political elites.

Um, a post-colonial nation keeping the language of the colonial power isn't a given, in all honesty. This usually happens when the colony in question feels that a local language isn't feasible enough to tie the new nation together, much less a settler colony where most people use the colonial language as a first language anyway. The Arab states from Morocco to Iraq all ditched it outright, for example. Even Malaysia and Indonesia, despite having a heterogeneous population, pretty much went straight into advocating Malay (Bahasa Melayu and Bahasa Indonesia) for everyone, rather than English (to an extent) and Dutch (abandoned outright). In China's case, unless we're looking at a frontier region like Yunnan or Tibet, where non-Chinese speakers form the majority or plurality, the local dialect will probably dominate, with Mandarin as a prestige language and language of intercommunication between dialect groups. That English and Portuguese only really have a presence in Hong Kong and Macau among political elites and Eurasians (with English having a better grip, as the de facto global lingua franca), so I can't see any colonial language being able to supersede Chinese in the long run in a Scrambled China, unless tremendous effort is taken to settle populations there, a ridiculous feat to pull off against the Chinese, even for the Russians or Japanese.
 
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Ultimately, though, I can't see any foreign power being able to hold significant parts of China for more than half a century. It'll be a massive drain of resources to bring it up to speed enough to exploit its labour and natural resources. And given how much resentment they've already whipped up just by manhandling the Qing into letting them run amok in their empire, I feel they're going to have a hard time on this one. The coastal ports they took IOTL was really the most realistic option, and Hong Kong and Macau did manage to stay in European hands until the tail end of the 20th Century.
What if, then, europeans don't conquer areas from the Qing, but during the Ming collapse? In the late 1500s and early 1600s, europeans are already mucking about in india, meaning asia isn't off the menu. Could they come in and take some chunks before the qing conquer the lot of it, creating something not entirely dissimilar to the 3 Kingdoms or Warring States periods?
 
What if, then, europeans don't conquer areas from the Qing, but during the Ming collapse? In the late 1500s and early 1600s, europeans are already mucking about in india, meaning asia isn't off the menu. Could they come in and take some chunks before the qing conquer the lot of it, creating something not entirely dissimilar to the 3 Kingdoms or Warring States periods?
That would be a whole lot harder, rather than easier... Europeans were barely able to gain more than a foothold in Southeast Asia at the time, and usually opted to play the local kings against each other rather than colonize them outright. The Portuguese did make headway into Macau, but that was pretty much it, and the Spanish and Dutch also opted instead to settle in Taiwan, which is supposedly easier, and yet ended in abject failure as well (primarily because of inter-European competition for Chinese markets, but also because Taiwan is itself a hellscape infested with malaria, headhunting natives and uppity Chinese settlers). I can't see them doing much more than what they've already done in Japan, which is to sell rival warlords guns in exchange for trade and preaching the Gospel. It was already hard enough in the Qing era where the industrial revolution had put them in a massive technological advantage. It would be a lot harder even further back in the past.
 
Probably not: the British failed to do so in India. There's too many Chinese and way too ingrained tradition in China for it to be easily christianized. The places European did christianize in this era tended to be through genocide and destruction of large portions of the existing society.

Not even a revival of the Church of the East or similar Syriac Christian movement? After all, that branch of Eastern Christianity bent over backwards to accommodate itself to Chinese traditions and customs - until Emperor Wuzong of the Táng (唐) dynasty banned all "foreign" religions. Even if it was under the nose of the "orthodox" European churches, a revival of the Church of East (probably with Indian help, as the Indians had conserved Syriac Christianity in Asia outside of the Middle East) and hence of ancient Chinese Christianity would be something very interesting to see.
 
Not even a revival of the Church of the East or similar Syriac Christian movement? After all, that branch of Eastern Christianity bent over backwards to accommodate itself to Chinese traditions and customs - until Emperor Wuzong of the Táng (唐) dynasty banned all "foreign" religions. Even if it was under the nose of the "orthodox" European churches, a revival of the Church of East (probably with Indian help, as the Indians had conserved Syriac Christianity in Asia outside of the Middle East) and hence of ancient Chinese Christianity would be something very interesting to see.
Maybe. Perhaps if the Taiping Kingdom or the nationalist movement opted for it as a reaction to the Western-dominated branches of Chalcedonian Christianity , it might have worked. Islam certainly managed to adapt well into Chinese society, despite being technically Sunni.
 
Won't work, since the Chinese written language is all the same, so people will be able to communicate with each other across intra and inter colonial borders.

Except that Written Chinese has never been that uniform, even among élites, and as a result it's easy to break it apart and have it go into different directions - not to mention that the gap between speech and writing is very wide between Written Chinese and Sinitic to the point where, at this point in time, it's impossible to communicate with each other through Written Chinese except through mass education and script reform. Put another way, just because we are using a derivative of the Greek alphabet to write English does not mean that we are all native speakers of Greek, or Latin for that matter - far from it. The script adapted to each spoken language people chose to represent their speech with, and Chinese characters would be no different. There's plenty of variation of writing and a shite-ton of variant characters to ensure that Chinese script would be looked at no differently from Latin/Greek/Cyrillic, or for that matter how Japanese uses Chinese characters but is still a separate language, or how Burmese is written using a Brahmi-based script despite it not being related to Sanskrit and Pali except through adoption of vocabulary (indeed, each language in India has its own script which ultimately comes from a common source, if India is being used as a model here). So it can work.
 
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